Renegotiating After Survey

f1ngerscrossed274

We have just had a Homebuyers Report back for a property and it has raised some issues that we are quite concerned about, namely...
- Roof needs propping up with an RSJ
- Floor in one room needs further investigating as joists are possibly damp

We are FTB and I’m quite upset as the house appeared in perfect condition from our viewings so I (perhaps naively) wasn’t expecting any major spanner in the work to come up on the survey. This only happened yesterday so I haven’t got formal quotes yet, but we’re expecting within the region £5-6k. This may not sound a lot to everyone, but we are already at the limits of our budget, so funding this additional work as a matter of urgency would be difficult for us. 

I have passed the survey on to our solicitor, at their request, highlighting these issues and asking what our next steps should be. Talking to friends and family, they’re under the impression that it is really the responsibility of the seller to remedy these issues - is that right? Some additional questions I have:

- If we are able to negotiate a reduction in price, this doesn’t materially affect our ability to afford the repairs in the short term UNLESS we can still borrow the mortgage based on original value. Is this likely to be an option?
- Does the fact of the repairs being structural mean that it is the responsibility of the vendor to resolve them, or is this a misassumption?
- What should we, as buyers, be doing right now?

For context, we’re in my opinion already getting a good deal on this house (although it’s at the limits of our budget). I don’t think the price is due to awareness of these issues, rather due to the proximity of the house at the busy end of the road and it being slightly overlooked by a commercial building. Since we started looking at houses late last year, we have not found anything that comes close to this property within our budget. I fear that losing this house would mean we have to seriously compromise on location, which is gutting to me. So I’m leaning more towards “get the house, we will make it work somehow” whereas my partner is much more cautious, as are some of  the friends and family giving us advice. It’s really put a downer on me and made me feel like it could be game over, but I don’t feel ready to give up. I’m just looking for some advice or experience, however anecdotal!

Davesnave

I think it would be helpful to respondents for you to quote the sections of the report you are currently paraphrasing.

Meanwhile, it's not incumbent on the seller to do anything to remedy issues if this is in England/Wales. It would  be better for a purchaser to have any work done, as then they would know it was carried out properly and  they'd have a contract with the repairer.

Renegotiation would be the way to go after someone has priced any work that needs doing.

AdrianC

f1ngerscrossed274 said:

We have just had a Homebuyers Report back for a property and it has raised some issues that we are quite concerned about, namely...
- Roof needs propping up with an RSJ
- Floor in one room needs further investigating as joists are possibly damp

What is the EXACT wording in your survey for both of those?
What is the source of moisture the surveyor suspects is affecting that room's floor?
Do you have any photos from inside the loft?

If we are able to negotiate a reduction in price, this doesn’t materially affect our ability to afford the repairs in the short term UNLESS we can still borrow the mortgage based on original value. Is this likely to be an option?

Have your lender done their valuation yet?

- Does the fact of the repairs being structural mean that it is the responsibility of the vendor to resolve them, or is this a misassumption?

The vendor has zero obligation to do anything at all, unless they agree to as part of the purchase contract.

It would be unwise to place that onus on them, because they will have no obligation beyond the cheapest possible short-term lash-up to meet whatever wording is agreed. If any can be.

- What should we, as buyers, be doing right now?

Figure out whether there actually is a problem or not. We can help you, with sufficient information.

Sunsaru

I had a similar situation with a house I went for last year. I survey brought up a drainage issue. Had the drains surveyed and it would have cost 2k plus the water company to come and dig up the back garden to replace the underground sewage pipe. I asked the vendor to sort it, she wanted to either go halves or take it off the asking price. Both scenarios involved me stumping up monies for the work and would have made little difference to my mortgage. I ended up walking away from what would have been the perfect house for me and my daughter. The house sold about a week later and I have no regrets.
The vendor does not have to sort it and you don't have to accept it. Don't put yourself in the doo doo just to get what you want, it's not worth it.

Mahsroh

As others have said, copy and paste the exact wording from the surveyors report.

They do have a habit of covering their back side so they will find all sorts of issues that in reality aren't as bad as their report would have you believe. Although a specific reference to an RSJ and the need to prop the roof does suggest something specific that needs sorting, but without the exact wording of the report it's hard to say.  

VintageHistorian

With a lot of surveys you'll find there's a lot of "maybe" and "might" issues that turn out to not be issues, it's mostly the surveyor being cautious because if they fail to spot a major issue then you'll be threatening to sue them for not giving you advance warning.

The joists one might be hard to investigate without pulling up carpets and floorboards, which the vendor would be reluctant to do. However the roof one should be easier to get checked out by a builder or roofing specialist. Not only will they be able to confirm if there's a problem, they might be able to give you a timeframe for when it will become a serious issue (i.e. "within the next 6 months" or "sometime in the next 10 years") which can help you quantify the risk, and they'll be able to give an idea of how much a repair will be. If it's £5k and you need to do it in the next decade then you can always save £1k a year for the next 5 years and get it done quicker, whereas £10k and it needs to be done before 2022 would potentially mean you have to walk away.

Once you get a quote then you can think about negotiations, or decide to walk away entirely. But I wouldn't jump to extremes before getting further checks done.

AdrianC

Mahsroh said:

Although a specific reference to an RSJ and the need to prop the roof does suggest something specific that needs sorting, but without the exact wording of the report it's hard to say.  

From a generic HBR, it's far more likely to be "might", "may", "get specialist" than definite "THIS NEEDS".
The OP hasn't mentioned a structural engineer's report, so...

f1ngerscrossed274

Thanks everyone for your help and comments so far! Here is some more precise wording from the report itself.
Roof:

• "We would recommend that you treat the following matters, all discussed later in this report, as matters to be remedied as soon as possible after you have completed the purchase of the property: 1. Main roof repairs including providing prop support to the mid-point of the rear timber roof purlin in the roof space..." 
• "There is evidence of some slight deflection to the roof framing of the front pitch of the main roof. There is, however, more noticeable dishing/deflection to the rear pitch of the main roof. This appears to be a common defect to similar type properties locally. Unlike the purlin support to the front part of the roof framework, the rear purlin is unsupported. The purlin does manifest a good degree of deflection which is approaching the limits of acceptable tolerances. We recommend that works of prop support to the rear purlin are undertaken. An RSJ (Rolled Steel Joist) should be configured between the partition wall between the first floor bedrooms and the rear main wall. Thereafter, a timber prop support can be formed between the RSJ and the mid-point of the timber purlin."

Floor

• "You should have particular regard to the following matters extracted from the body of the report. They are not in order of importance and are not intended to be a full summary of the contents of the report. You are however, recommended to obtain formal builders and other estimates for such items before your legal commitment to purchase the property. Your attention is drawn to: Investigate/improve the level of support or packing to the springy floor joists to the right hand side of the lounge."
• "Floors are of suspended timber construction. Suspended timber floor surfaces, where walked on, revealed minor spring and unevenness to the majority of the building which is considered within acceptable building tolerances. The floor to the right hand side at the front part of the through lounge, however, is noticeably springy where the floor attaches to the party wall. We were unable to check the floor to the corresponding rear part of the through lounge given furniture. Further investigations are required by a building contractor in order to assess whether the repairs required are associated with poor support or packing to the corresponding floor joists or whether the issue is affected by timber decay."
• The dampness is a hypothesis from a family member who works in Engineering

In terms of some of your other questions:

• We do not unfortunately have any photos of either of these issues
• The lender has done their valuation and has given us a mortgage offer for the full amount we wanted to borrow
• If it's relevant to the discussion, the house was on the market for "OIEO" £X and our offer that eventually got accepted was £X on the nose. 

Mahsroh

AdrianC said:

Mahsroh said:

Although a specific reference to an RSJ and the need to prop the roof does suggest something specific that needs sorting, but without the exact wording of the report it's hard to say.  

From a generic HBR, it's far more likely to be "might", "may", "get specialist" than definite "THIS NEEDS".
The OP hasn't mentioned a structural engineer's report, so...

Agreed. That's why I said the OP was based advised to copy and paste the exact wording. As you say, unless a Structural Engineer has looked at it, it won't be anything definitive. All I was trying to say was that it does seem like a very specific item to raise, which suggests the surveyor has seen something in particular that they don't like. There may also be nothing in it and all and it could be a storm in a teacup. 

AdrianC

f1ngerscrossed274 said:

Thanks everyone for your help and comments so far! Here is some more precise wording from the report itself.

Absolutely verbatim and unredacted?

Roof:

• "We would recommend that you treat the following matters, all discussed later in this report, as matters to be remedied as soon as possible after you have completed the purchase of the property: 1. Main roof repairs including providing prop support to the mid-point of the rear timber roof purlin in the roof space..." 
• "There is evidence of some slight deflection to the roof framing of the front pitch of the main roof. There is, however, more noticeable dishing/deflection to the rear pitch of the main roof. This appears to be a common defect to similar type properties locally. Unlike the purlin support to the front part of the roof framework, the rear purlin is unsupported. The purlin does manifest a good degree of deflection which is approaching the limits of acceptable tolerances. We recommend that works of prop support to the rear purlin are undertaken. An RSJ (Rolled Steel Joist) should be configured between the partition wall between the first floor bedrooms and the rear main wall. Thereafter, a timber prop support can be formed between the RSJ and the mid-point of the timber purlin."

OK, so it certainly doesn't read as if he was reaching for his hard-hat before going back in the house. It's surprisingly definite for a HBR, and I'm surprised there's no "specialist opinion" suggestion being made.

It's a roof timber question - the purlins are the timbers that go along the roof slope (rafters go up and down) - so I'd be getting a roofer to go in there and have a look before making any decisions.

Floor

• "You should have particular regard to the following matters extracted from the body of the report. They are not in order of importance and are not intended to be a full summary of the contents of the report. You are however, recommended to obtain formal builders and other estimates for such items before your legal commitment to purchase the property. Your attention is drawn to: Investigate/improve the level of support or packing to the springy floor joists to the right hand side of the lounge."
• "Floors are of suspended timber construction. Suspended timber floor surfaces, where walked on, revealed minor spring and unevenness to the majority of the building which is considered within acceptable building tolerances. The floor to the right hand side at the front part of the through lounge, however, is noticeably springy where the floor attaches to the party wall. We were unable to check the floor to the corresponding rear part of the through lounge given furniture. Further investigations are required by a building contractor in order to assess whether the repairs required are associated with poor support or packing to the corresponding floor joists or whether the issue is affected by timber decay."

That bit of floor's a bit bouncier than the rest, but X-ray vision isn't part of the surveyor's normal toolkit, so they suggest you might want to have a look underneath. Might just be a bit wobbly because of what's been done to the floor previously (perhaps fitting central heating or rewiring?), might be a bit grungy in there. There's no mention in what you've quoted of any reason to suspect dampness causing rot.

Obvs, that'll require carpet/floorboards to be lifted.
Obvs, vendors don't like that much...

The lender has done their valuation and has given us a mortgage offer for the full amount we wanted to borrow

That's your mortgage question answered, then. They're happy to lend based on your offer that was accepted.

If it's relevant to the discussion, the house was on the market for "OIEO" £X and our offer that eventually got accepted was £X on the nose.

No, the only figure that matters is the £X that you offered and was accepted, not the wording or discussions or hand-waving that got you to that figure.

If you want to renegotiate, then the vendor will almost certainly want to see your justification.
They then may or may not agree to a price change. If they don't, you may or may not want to walk away.
If you do agree a different price, your lender need to know.

Rambosmum

The floor issue wouldn't bother me and I wouldn't think twice about it until either a) there's visible damp or mould on the area near it or b) I was replacing the floors at a point in decorating and I might look at what is underneath at that point - depending on the construction f the floor, it could be that someone spilled a pot pf water and the chip board subfloor has got damp and disintegrated a bit (I speak from experience on that one!)

It may need a new roof soonish - how old is the house? How old is the roof? How does it look in comparison to its neighbours (e.g. has most of the street already replaced theirs?) if it's a 50+ year old house and hasn't had anew roof, then it will need a new one sooner rather than later. Depending on where you are in the country and how big the house is, that's around £3k.

But yes, get a quote for a new roof - most companies in the local area will be able to give you one over the phone as they do so many of the same types of houses (unless yours is unique in the street) and use that as a starting point for negotiation.