Removing a wall in ex-council flat

akashkuk

Hello,
I recently offered on a ex-council flat in Lewisham and it has been accepted.
The flat is first floor Victorian conversion flat in a three storeyed semi-detached house.
Now I would like to remove a wall between kitchen and small bedroom to make for a larger bedroom. I will then install a new kitchen in the reception. Pls see the floorplan below
1) Do I need approval from the freeholder in this case Lewisham council for these changes?
2) If anyone has experience, how much time does it take for the approval to come thru from the council? And how complex is the process? 
Thank you!

hazyjo

Is it load bearing?

The council are not usually very accommodating with requests like these. They need the easy route of knowing their building is safe without various internal walls being removed so it's often a blanket no. Although that's more often for purpose built blocks, so it's definitely worth asking!

Really not sure that lounge would be big enough to accommodate a kitchen, table and lounge. Sounds tight to me.

It's a common thing to shove it all into one room, but it's usually done to create an extra bedroom and make say a 1 bed flat a 2 bed flat. Check with local EAs as to value. Compare a "2 double-bed flat with the rest in one room" against "1 double and 1 single bed with separate kitchen and lounge".

eddddy

It looks like Bedroom 2 and the kitchen were one room before the conversion - so I doubt there would be structural issues in putting it back like that.

You'd have the issue of getting water and waste pipes to the new kitchen location. Maybe that would be easiest if the new kitchen area was adjacent to the bathroom.

But it does look like you'd be spending a lot of money to end up with a less marketable (i.e. less valuable) flat.

As a starting point you can check what the lease says about alterations/improvements. And maybe ask the council what their process is for approving alterations/improvements. You might need surveyor's reports etc, to support your request.

But there's an argument that the law allows leaseholders to make improvements (which are reasonable), even if the lease forbids it. But then it depends whether you want a legal fight with the council over this, and whether the lack of clear consent might make selling the property more difficult.

yksi

I would expect that you will need permission from the leaseholder, and especially because at the time you come to sell this property the layout will not match the lease and land registry. Check what's in both of those before you start your planning. Like hazyjo indicated, it's more commonly done to create an extra bedroom. If it were mine, I'd be considering it in order to create a third bedroom, not a larger second bedroom, but you also need to think about how people live their lives these days. The shift towards working from home means that more people are against open-plan living, that is, they don't want the kitchen in their living room anymore, so you might find this isn't going to pay dividends when it's time to sell.

akashkuk

eddddy said:

It looks like Bedroom 2 and the kitchen were one room before the conversion - so I doubt there would be structural issues in putting it back like that.

You'd have the issue of getting water and waste pipes to the new kitchen location. Maybe that would be easiest if the new kitchen area was adjacent to the bathroom.

But it does look like you'd be spending a lot of money to end up with a less marketable (i.e. less valuable) flat.

As a starting point you can check what the lease says about alterations/improvements. And maybe ask the council what their process is for approving alterations/improvements. You might need surveyor's reports etc, to support your request.

But there's an argument that the law allows leaseholders to make improvements (which are reasonable), even if the lease forbids it. But then it depends whether you want a legal fight with the council over this, and whether the lack of clear consent might make selling the property more difficult.

Yes its a non load bearing wall.
I am bit surprised at the responses that the value of the property will go down.
If I enlarge the second bedroom, I can place an exercise bike, some other workout equipment and still have sufficient space to use it as a double bedroom. That's how I am thinking. Also the flat will become more airy and more light will come in. 

If this job is done well, you all still think the value of the flat might decrease? 

hazyjo

hazyjo said:

Check with local EAs as to value. Compare a "2 double-bed flat with the rest in one room" against "1 double and 1 single bed with separate kitchen and lounge".

akashkuk said:

eddddy said:

It looks like Bedroom 2 and the kitchen were one room before the conversion - so I doubt there would be structural issues in putting it back like that.

You'd have the issue of getting water and waste pipes to the new kitchen location. Maybe that would be easiest if the new kitchen area was adjacent to the bathroom.

But it does look like you'd be spending a lot of money to end up with a less marketable (i.e. less valuable) flat.

As a starting point you can check what the lease says about alterations/improvements. And maybe ask the council what their process is for approving alterations/improvements. You might need surveyor's reports etc, to support your request.

But there's an argument that the law allows leaseholders to make improvements (which are reasonable), even if the lease forbids it. But then it depends whether you want a legal fight with the council over this, and whether the lack of clear consent might make selling the property more difficult.

If this job is done well, you all still think the value of the flat might decrease? 

As I mentioned (and have quoted) above, ask local estate agents. As also said, that lounge at 16' doesn't seem particularly big for a kitchen, sofas/lounge plus somewhere to sit. Were you just wanting a breakfast bar or something?

I used to squeeze a table and chairs and sofas etc into a room that was a similar length. I can't imagine how I'd have fitted a kitchen in too.

hazyjo

PS search rightmove or pinterest or whatever for similar sized rooms with all that inside. See what they look like.

kasqueak

You would almost certainly need permission from the freeholder. Check the lease for sure. But I lived in an ex council flat for 10 years and we needed permission for almost anything! 

 

akashkuk

yksi said:

I would expect that you will need permission from the leaseholder, and especially because at the time you come to sell this property the layout will not match the lease and land registry. Check what's in both of those before you start your planning. Like hazyjo indicated, it's more commonly done to create an extra bedroom. If it were mine, I'd be considering it in order to create a third bedroom, not a larger second bedroom, but you also need to think about how people live their lives these days. The shift towards working from home means that more people are against open-plan living, that is, they don't want the kitchen in their living room anymore, so you might find this isn't going to pay dividends when it's time to sell.

The window in the kitchen is very small perhaps because it was one double bedroom before. 
But I would like to ask you why are people against open plan living now? Two proper double bedrooms give me and my partner to both work from home. But I am curious why do you say that

akashkuk

kasqueak said:

You would almost certainly need permission from the freeholder. Check the lease for sure. But I lived in an ex council flat for 10 years and we needed permission for almost anything! 

 

Ok, so even if I were not to knock down that wall, would I need permission to renovate my bathroom and kitchen? That seems silly

NameUnavailable

akashkuk said:

kasqueak said:

You would almost certainly need permission from the freeholder. Check the lease for sure. But I lived in an ex council flat for 10 years and we needed permission for almost anything! 

 

Ok, so even if I were not to knock down that wall, would I need permission to renovate my bathroom and kitchen? That seems silly

That's typical for most leasehold properties. You need to ask permission and will be probably charge a fee for granting it.

You need to read the lease to see what it says in this regard. Redecorating (painting/wallpapering/flooring) don't usually require permission, in fact you may be required to redecorate every X years, but anything else might need freeholder permission.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6170745/Leaseholder-locked-legal-battle-freehold-property-owner-seizes-600-000-London-flat.html

An extreme example but this can happen!