Consumer Rights vs Vendor T & C’s

Butter_Crunch

zzyzx1221 said:

I'm not sure where you have got the idea that it is mandatory for these products to be sealed.  I'm certainly struggling to find the law that mandates any of the products you mentioned be sealed for hygiene reasons.  Care to point me in the right direction?

Hi - I will try & have a look to see if I can find it again. I think mandatory might have been the wrong word, maybe. Underwear & swimwear are usually sealed for hygiene purposes. Whether it’s mandatory to seal them or not, is another check. Whilst I was checking round, I came across a website where they gave examples. One of the examples was returning cosmetics that had been opened because you’d changed your mind.

Manxman_in_exile

Butter_Crunch said:

zzyzx1221 said:

I'm not sure where you have got the idea that it is mandatory for these products to be sealed.  I'm certainly struggling to find the law that mandates any of the products you mentioned be sealed for hygiene reasons.  Care to point me in the right direction?

... Underwear & swimwear are usually sealed for hygiene purposes...

M&S men's underpants aren't "sealed" - unless you call being wrapped around a piece of cardboard sealed.

I'm not sure the "hygiene and health" thing makes sense really.  What about socks?  They aren't "sealed".  If someone buys some socks online and tries them for size, can they send them back?  I can imagine all manner of hygiene problems there!!!

NB - Ah!  Never having bought socks or underwear online, it's just struck me that perhaps online purchases are sealed.  But I doubt it somehow...

unholyangel

Manxman_in_exile said:

unholyangel said:

...
There are other circumstances where the right to cancel can be lost. Such as those that I mentioned (goods sealed for hygiene reasons if they become unsealed after delivery). 
...

Just to satisfy my curiosity, do the goods need to be sealed for hygiene reasons, or do they just need to be sealed?  Yes - the goods need to be sealed - but the legislation doesn't say why they need to be sealed, does it?

For the purpose of the regulation, yes they need to be sealed for hygiene reasons otherwise the exemption doesn't apply.

If the goods don't need to be sealed for hygiene/health reasons, what's to stop a retailer claiming all sealed goods can't be returned for those reasons? Most clothes normally come sealed. I'd certainly not want to share clothes with most people due to hygiene concerns. But I wouldn't for one second say they're sealed for hygiene reasons. 

Knickers on the other hand....

zzyzx1221

unholyangel said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

unholyangel said:

...
There are other circumstances where the right to cancel can be lost. Such as those that I mentioned (goods sealed for hygiene reasons if they become unsealed after delivery). 
...

Just to satisfy my curiosity, do the goods need to be sealed for hygiene reasons, or do they just need to be sealed?  Yes - the goods need to be sealed - but the legislation doesn't say why they need to be sealed, does it?

For the purpose of the regulation, yes they need to be sealed for hygiene reasons otherwise the exemption doesn't apply.

If the goods don't need to be sealed for hygiene/health reasons, what's to stop a retailer claiming all sealed goods can't be returned for those reasons? Most clothes normally come sealed. I'd certainly not want to share clothes with most people due to hygiene concerns. But I wouldn't for one second say they're sealed for hygiene reasons. 

Knickers on the other hand....

Nothing is going to stop a seller claiming all sealed goods can't be returned for hygiene reasons, just like there's nothing to stop a seller sealing unsealed goods in cellophane themselves and saying they're "sealed for hygiene reasons."  What presumably stops them from doing that is all the negative press, the likelihood of court cases (which they'll invariably lose) and maybe a Trading Standard investigation or two if, for example, Curry's decided that all their TV's are now "sealed for hygiene reasons."

What Manxman is getting at, and I tend to agree, is that the law doesn't state that when the goods were sealed, the intention had to be that that seal was for hygiene reasons.  There appears to be nothing to stop a retailer from taking goods that were sealed because that's just how they come and saying that seal is a hygiene seal.  And as long as it is a product where it is reasonable that it could be sealed for hygiene reasons, why it was initially put in sealed packaging seems to be irrelevant.

bris

Manxman_in_exile said:

unholyangel said:

...
There are other circumstances where the right to cancel can be lost. Such as those that I mentioned (goods sealed for hygiene reasons if they become unsealed after delivery). 
...

Just to satisfy my curiosity, do the goods need to be sealed for hygiene reasons, or do they just need to be sealed?  Yes - the goods need to be sealed - but the legislation doesn't say why they need to be sealed, does it?

No, nothing needs to be sealed.

But lets take an example, a high street store sells under wear wrapped in nothing but a cardboard, nothing sealed, they then tell the customer no refunds for underwear for hygiene reasons, this is perfectly legal as in store purchases have no return rights apart from normal consumer rights for faulty items etc.

The same store has an online presence which puts them into Distance selling rules. They take that same underwear and wrap them in plastic and put a seal or even a sticker on them and call them sealed. They then state no returns for hygiene reasons if the seal is broken, again worded correctly perfectly legal.

So no nothing needs sealed, it just the way to protect them for online sales. 

For the OP the question is, is the product an item that may have a hygiene risk? If so bite the bullet, if not it's subject to the same rules as a toaster.

Manxman_in_exile

unholyangel said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

unholyangel said:

...
There are other circumstances where the right to cancel can be lost. Such as those that I mentioned (goods sealed for hygiene reasons if they become unsealed after delivery). 
...

Just to satisfy my curiosity, do the goods need to be sealed for hygiene reasons, or do they just need to be sealed?  Yes - the goods need to be sealed - but the legislation doesn't say why they need to be sealed, does it?

For the purpose of the regulation, yes they need to be sealed for hygiene reasons otherwise the exemption doesn't apply.

...

But the regulation doesn't say they need to be sealed for hygiene reasons, does it?  It simply says "sealed" and does not mention anything about the reason for being sealed.

Manxman_in_exile

zzyzx1221 said:

unholyangel said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

unholyangel said:

...
There are other circumstances where the right to cancel can be lost. Such as those that I mentioned (goods sealed for hygiene reasons if they become unsealed after delivery). 
...

Just to satisfy my curiosity, do the goods need to be sealed for hygiene reasons, or do they just need to be sealed?  Yes - the goods need to be sealed - but the legislation doesn't say why they need to be sealed, does it?

For the purpose of the regulation, yes they need to be sealed for hygiene reasons otherwise the exemption doesn't apply.

If the goods don't need to be sealed for hygiene/health reasons, what's to stop a retailer claiming all sealed goods can't be returned for those reasons? Most clothes normally come sealed. I'd certainly not want to share clothes with most people due to hygiene concerns. But I wouldn't for one second say they're sealed for hygiene reasons. 

What Manxman is getting at, and I tend to agree, is that the law doesn't state that when the goods were sealed, the intention had to be that that seal was for hygiene reasons.  There appears to be nothing to stop a retailer from taking goods that were sealed because that's just how they come and saying that seal is a hygiene seal.  And as long as it is a product where it is reasonable that it could be sealed for hygiene reasons, why it was initially put in sealed packaging seems to be irrelevant.

Yes - that is the point I am trying to make. 

Everyone keeps saying that the purpose for the goods being sealed must be for hygiene or health reasons, but that is not how I read the regulation in question.  It simply says the goods must be sealed - it doesn't say anything about why they are sealed.  I think everybody assumes that must be the case because that particular paragraph goes on to talk about the goods not being returnable for hygiene or health reasons, therefore the reason for being sealed must be health/hygiene - but that's not what the regulation says.

Manxman_in_exile

unholyangel said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

unholyangel said:

...
There are other circumstances where the right to cancel can be lost. Such as those that I mentioned (goods sealed for hygiene reasons if they become unsealed after delivery). 
...

Just to satisfy my curiosity, do the goods need to be sealed for hygiene reasons, or do they just need to be sealed?  Yes - the goods need to be sealed - but the legislation doesn't say why they need to be sealed, does it?

...

If the goods don't need to be sealed for hygiene/health reasons, what's to stop a retailer claiming all sealed goods can't be returned for those reasons? ...

That's my point.  What is to stop them?

Manxman_in_exile

bris said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

unholyangel said:

...
There are other circumstances where the right to cancel can be lost. Such as those that I mentioned (goods sealed for hygiene reasons if they become unsealed after delivery). 
...

Just to satisfy my curiosity, do the goods need to be sealed for hygiene reasons, or do they just need to be sealed?  Yes - the goods need to be sealed - but the legislation doesn't say why they need to be sealed, does it?

No, nothing needs to be sealed.
...

So no nothing needs sealed, it just the way to protect them for online sales. 
...

That's my point.  Nothing needs to be sealed, but if it is - for whatever reason - it gives the seller an opportunity to argue "health and hygiene"

And what is "sealed"?  A strip of sellotape?  A couple of staples?  One of those plastic blister packs that inflicts multiple lacerations on your hands when you try to open them - even with scissors?

Butter_Crunch

Lots of interesting comments & apologies for not quoting them all. Maybe it’s part of some other regulation, like the manufacture of products, like medicines, where it stipulates that they ‘have’ to be sealed for health/hygiene purpose. Most items you buy are ‘sealed’ in some way. Probably to give you confidence it’s new & to stop some scallywag opening the box & nicking some/all of what’s inside. if there was a list somewhere of items that have to be sealed as part of the manufacturing process, as a mandatory requirement for health/hygiene purposes, that would be a starting point. It would then be down to shops deciding what can & can’t be opened due to health/hygiene & putting it in their T & C’s?