Consumer Rights vs Vendor T & C’s

Manxman_in_exile

unholyangel said:

davidmcn said:

unholyangel said:

I'd suggest that a vape tank (or at least the drip tip part of it, which is removable) is akin to a mug or water bottle. Yet those aren't sealed, so don't appear to be a hygiene concern. 

But I'm not aware of any requirement that the item was sealed in order for it to be non-returnable for hygiene reasons.

You mean other than the consumer contracts regulations which give you the right to cancel distance contracts for 14 days minimum and only make an exception to the rule IF the goods are sealed for hygiene reasons and they become unsealed after delivery?

Does it say that the reason for the seal must be hygiene?

"... in the case of a contract for the supply of sealed goods which are not suitable for return due to health protection or hygiene reasons... "

I read that as the goods not being suitable for return due to hygiene reasons, not that they must be sealed for hygiene reasons?  (I agree they need to be sealed, but not necessarily the reason for being sealed).

Butter_Crunch

I’ve tried to explain to the shop that if vape products ‘had’ to be sealed for hygiene purposes, then all vape products would be supplied sealed. They’re not, as any person who vapes can confirm. I received some other pods the other day which I ordered from a different supplier. They weren’t sealed, nor where the pods inside. They were just in a plastic cage like holder that wasn’t sealed. I also remember buying a small SMOK RPM RBA from them a few months back, that wasn’t sealed either. 

unholyangel

davidmcn said:

unholyangel said:

davidmcn said:

unholyangel said:

I'd suggest that a vape tank (or at least the drip tip part of it, which is removable) is akin to a mug or water bottle. Yet those aren't sealed, so don't appear to be a hygiene concern. 

But I'm not aware of any requirement that the item was sealed in order for it to be non-returnable for hygiene reasons.

You mean other than the consumer contracts regulations which give you the right to cancel distance contracts for 14 days minimum and only make an exception to the rule IF the goods are sealed for hygiene reasons and they become unsealed after delivery?

Yes, I was entirely correct to say I was unaware of the sealing being a requirement

Both being sealed goods for hygiene reasons and being unsealed after delivery are a requirement if the seller wants to refuse the cancellation request. As well as informing the consumer they'll lose the right to cancel in such circumstances. 

If the goods aren't sealed, you can cancel - regardless of whether the goods pose a health and safety concern.

Ergo if a retailer wants to protect their position, the goods must be sealed. And since the unsealing of any other goods (other than software or audio/video recordings) does not lose you the right to cancel, it is safe to say that yes, the goods do need to be sealed for hygiene reasons (at least as far as the context we're discussing which is the right to cancel under the CCRs). 

Butter_Crunch

unholyangel said:

Both being sealed goods for hygiene reasons and being unsealed after delivery are a requirement if the seller wants to refuse the cancellation request. As well as informing the consumer they'll lose the right to cancel in such circumstances. 
If the goods aren't sealed, you can cancel - regardless of whether the goods pose a health and safety concern.
Ergo if a retailer wants to protect their position, the goods must be sealed. And since the unsealing of any other goods (other than software or audio/video recordings) does not lose you the right to cancel, it is safe to say that yes, the goods do need to be sealed for hygiene reasons (at least as far as the context we're discussing which is the right to cancel under the CCRs). 

Does that not leave the supplier wide open? Because vape products aren’t all sealed, unless they seal it themselves, anything you receive not sealed, can be returned under CCRs? I think, in this instance, the shop was lucky that this was cellophane wrapped. I don’t think they’d go to the trouble of sealing all the stock they have in such a manner that it couldn’t be opened. The little RBA I bought off them wasn’t sealed. Some people (idiots like me) do make genuine mistakes when ordering on line. The tank I was trying to return doesn’t even take the same coils as the mod I bought. I just think they have a pretty shoddy customer service. It’s probably water off a ducks back to them. I certainly won’t buy from them again..

powerful_Rogue

The only way you're going to find out is to take them to court and let the judge decide.

Butter_Crunch

powerful_Rogue said:

The only way you're going to find out is to take them to court and let the judge decide.

I’m not that determined for a £20 tank 🤣.  I just didn’t find their carte blanche approach very endearing.

unholyangel

Butter_Crunch said:

unholyangel said:

Both being sealed goods for hygiene reasons and being unsealed after delivery are a requirement if the seller wants to refuse the cancellation request. As well as informing the consumer they'll lose the right to cancel in such circumstances. 
If the goods aren't sealed, you can cancel - regardless of whether the goods pose a health and safety concern.
Ergo if a retailer wants to protect their position, the goods must be sealed. And since the unsealing of any other goods (other than software or audio/video recordings) does not lose you the right to cancel, it is safe to say that yes, the goods do need to be sealed for hygiene reasons (at least as far as the context we're discussing which is the right to cancel under the CCRs). 

Does that not leave the supplier wide open? Because vape products aren’t all sealed, unless they seal it themselves, anything you receive not sealed, can be returned under CCRs? I think, in this instance, the shop was lucky that this was cellophane wrapped. I don’t think they’d go to the trouble of sealing all the stock they have in such a manner that it couldn’t be opened. The little RBA I bought off them wasn’t sealed. Some people (idiots like me) do make genuine mistakes when ordering on line. The tank I was trying to return doesn’t even take the same coils as the mod I bought. I just think they have a pretty shoddy customer service. It’s probably water off a ducks back to them. I certainly won’t buy from them again..

There's some circumstances the right to cancel under CCRs doesn't apply at all. Such as contracts for goods .are to the customer's specifications. Although choosing from standard options offered by the retailer doesn't count as your specifications. 

There are other circumstances where the right to cancel can be lost. Such as those that I mentioned (goods sealed for hygiene reasons if they become unsealed after delivery). 

So if the goods aren't sealed and aren't otherwise exempt, you should have the right to cancel. 
If the goods are sealed and you don't unseal them, you have the right to cancel. 
But the trader must also inform you of the circumstances in which you can lose the right to cancel. 

Most retailers fail with the information requirement. 

Manxman_in_exile

unholyangel said:

...
There are other circumstances where the right to cancel can be lost. Such as those that I mentioned (goods sealed for hygiene reasons if they become unsealed after delivery). 
...

Just to satisfy my curiosity, do the goods need to be sealed for hygiene reasons, or do they just need to be sealed?  Yes - the goods need to be sealed - but the legislation doesn't say why they need to be sealed, does it?

Butter_Crunch

Other than food, It depends what products have to be sealed as a mandatory requirement for hygiene purposes. I mention cosmetics as I’m sure I’ve seen something on them. If they weren’t properly sealed, you’d get everybody trying lipstick, blushers etc in shops & putting it back on the shelf. You’d get hone & find half your lipstick had been used, yuk. Medicines & sanitary products are sealed.  Probably 90% of vape products come from abroad. if it was mandatory for them to be sealed for hygiene purposes, would customs/trading standards would pick up on shipments of unsealed products? If they have, it’s not been enforced..

zzyzx1221

Butter_Crunch said:

Other than food, It depends what products have to be sealed as a mandatory requirement for hygiene purposes. I mention cosmetics as I’m sure I’ve seen something on them. If they weren’t properly sealed, you’d get everybody trying lipstick, blushers etc in shops & putting it back on the shelf. You’d get hone & find half your lipstick had been used, yuk. Medicines & sanitary products are sealed.  Probably 90% of vape products come from abroad. if it was mandatory for them to be sealed for hygiene purposes, would customs/trading standards would pick up on shipments of unsealed products? If they have, it’s not been enforced..

I'm not sure where you have got the idea that it is mandatory for these products to be sealed.  I'm certainly struggling to find the law that mandates any of the products you mentioned be sealed for hygiene reasons.  Care to point me in the right direction?