Struggling to make a proposal for court settlement

Asonedoorcloses

Just wanted to see if there was a bit of advice for me, Im struggling to work out what proposal to make my ex due to not having full disclosure of all assets/savings.
Bit of background, married for 5yrs, lived together for 9 and separated now for 18 months. 2 children of opposite sex 8 and 3, joint names on the deeds and mortgage of the FH. Equity in house approx £170,000 (after fees paid etc) both have pensions of around £25,000 but I havent worked since our youngest was born and only worked part time after our eldest was born and before I went on maternity again. It was a joint decision as it didnt make sense for me to work and us pay childcare. I have been looking for employment for over a year but with the current crisis it has been impossible for many reasons. When my youngest starts school in September and things have settled down I will work as much as I can but it will only be on a minimum wage. I have had advice from a mortgage advisor that I have little hope of securing a mortgage until I start earning a decent wage and so cannot buy another property when the FH is sold (I cannot take on the mortgage alone). I will need to rent privately and in the area we live in will be at least £1500 per month for a 3 bedroomed house.
I dont have any savings or other assets and no debts.
He will not disclose a savings account that I have flagged up on his Form E (clear evidence there is one which hasnt been disclosed), nor will he provide share valuations that he holds in his families limited company. He also receives dividends on top of his basic wage and whilst these were reduced and have now stopped due to Covid, there is no doubt they will resume but again he will not help matters by giving any indication of when. Without dividends he earns £1350 per month, with dividends and before Covid he was getting £2700 on top so a total of over £4000 a month. He has no other assets (apart from the jointly owned family car worth £2500) or debts.
He has voiced a few times that he wants to settle out of court but I have said I would like a clear idea of our finances before making any decisions and am prepared to let things go to court for a judge to decide if he continues to be obstructive. He will not respond to the questionnaire and subsequently the schedule of deficiencies I filed regarding disparities on his Form E. He has also not followed the last court order to answer these. 

 I am only getting advice from a solicitor as and when so really Im representing myself. I have been told I can either make an offer based on what I know (no idea where to start on this) or I can leave it until our FDR in July. I am worried it will go against me not having attempted any proposal....so based on all of this, does anyone have any words of advice? Would asking for 80/20 equity in my favour and not touching our pensions (as they are worth nearly the same amount) be totally unreasonable? That would give him slightly more than a 15% deposit on a £200,000 property (2 bed around here) considering he would be able to then get a mortgage alone. With the non disclosure of shares and savings I have no idea of what he has been putting away this past 18months and if his earnings increase significantly in the near future he will be better off than us anyway.

Savvy_Sue

I know nothing, but ...

I think you need to work out what you'd settle for in order to bring this to a close - which may be less than what's fair, and less than you could get if you fought hard.

In deciding what that would be, it's clear your ex is prepared to hide assets and ignore the court.

So you'd need to be prepared to pay more for legal support than you would if he was going to be reasonable. 

So asking for 80/20, you would expect a long hard fight. 

Might a more even split lead to a faster settlement?

Plus this might be the time to get some proper advice.

thepurplepixie

If he agreed to 80/20 would you be able to keep the house?  I know someone who got 100% of the family home, obviously she needed to be able to keep the mortgage going.
Failing that would you be allowed to stay in the house until the children are older and you are working and then dividing it?
Hope it works out, it sounds tough.

sassyblue

You can’t be expected to make an offer without having a true indication of your marital finances which includes his undisclosed account. I’m not surprised he wants to settle out of court! 

Don’t cave in and tell him you'll get the judge to order him to produce those statements. 

Asonedoorcloses

sassyblue said:

You can’t be expected to make an offer without having a true indication of your marital finances which includes his undisclosed account. I’m not surprised he wants to settle out of court! 

Don’t cave in and tell him you'll get the judge to order him to produce those statements. 

The more time goes on the more set I am in going through the court process, its not fair that I have cooperated in every court order and he hasn't. Wish there were harsher penalties for non-compliance

sassyblue

so do I, I don’t understand why the judge isn’t able to order the bank to disclose the information. I think things like that will happen in future but for now people like you are stuck. It’s unfair and very frustrating.

Alias_Omega

• married for 5yrs, lived together for 9 and separated now for 18 months.
• 2 children
• Equity in house approx £170,000 (after fees paid etc)
• Both have pensions of around £25,000
• We have a jointly owned family car worth £2500,
  
• He earns £1350 per month, with dividends and before Covid he was getting £2700 on top so a total of over £4000 a month.
  

Thats the basics sorted...

Concerns -

• I cannot take on the mortgage alone. I will need to rent privately and in the area we live in will be at least £1500 per month for a 3 bedroomed house.     Dont worry about this. This is a expenditure need on the Form E. You have a need to house yourself, and your children.
  
  
• He will not disclose a savings account that I have flagged up on his Form E (clear evidence there is one which hasnt been disclosed), nor will he provide share valuations that he holds in his families limited company.   Let the judge deal with this, you ask the questions to the judge, and let the judge deal with it. If he doesnt comply, the judge will "f*ck him".
  
  
• He has voiced a few times that he wants to settle out of court but I have said I would like a clear idea of our finances before making any decisions and am prepared to let things go to court for a judge to decide if he continues to be obstructive.  Of course he does, he is scared of the judge.
  

• He will not respond to the questionnaire and subsequently the schedule of deficiencies I filed regarding disparities on his Form E.  Let the judge deal with this. Its smoke and mirrors
  

He has also not followed the last court order to answer these. 

Responses above.

COVID wont be around forever, his income will increase. let the judge make a suggestion at the first hearing. I suspect you can use that you are starting point.

I would say, that the assets are £172k, so you could be looking at £86k each, plus the pensions as a 50/50 split. The family home could be sold etc, you take your lump sum and have a new life. But also, you need to consider his income and maintaining your lifestyle. Going from £4k a month income to £0, is a shock and you may need some Spousal Maintenance too. That could be in the form of monthly payments, or another "lump sum.... This would be handy when you are starting a fresh...

What you havent mentioned is your age or income...

Gavin83

What evidence do you have for this savings account and do you have a rough idea of how much is in it? Frankly if we’re talking something like £50k it’ll make a big difference to your case, for a few thousand not so much.

If you can settle out of court I’d recommend doing so. However if he’s unwilling to disclose assets you may have no other choice than to take it to court.

A few negative aspects. Firstly you quote his salary as £1350 a month. I’m not sure if this is gross or net but either way it isn’t that far above minimum wage. As you say the court would expect you to find work yourself going forward but given your husbands low salary his earning potential isn’t much greater than yours.

Now you might mention the shares. Your issue is the judge can’t rule on what might be, only what is. At the moment the shares are likely devalued considerably and as pointed out he isn’t getting an income from it. You might argue this’ll return, he’ll likely argue the business is failing due to Covid and is likely to go into liquidation in the future. This could well be mostly disregarded.

Also I think an 80/20 split it extremely optimistic. It’s impossible to say what the award would be and while the judge will prioritise the children there are limits to this. You won’t be expected to maintain the same lifestyle and a 3 bedroom house won’t be considered essential for you and two children. You might be allowed to remain in the house until the youngest is 18 but this would be dependent on you being able to afford the mortgage on your own.

Ultimately I think this could be one of those divorces where the judgement leaves you both feeling hard done by. My recommendation would be to keep your expectations lower and then the disappointment will reduce.

TBagpuss

Could you afford to pay the current mortgage? If so, it may be worth looking at a proposal which provides for you to remain in the house for now, and for it to be sold in (say) 2 years time, to give you time to build up some mortgage capacity. 
Have you looked into the cost of buying a shared ownership property? How much of the equity would you need touy into a shared ownership property suitable for you an the children?

It's not unreasonable for you to want accurate information before you make an offer. With regard to the business you may be able to get some idea by looking at what is filed at Companies House https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-a-company - look at the last couple of pre-covid years and then consider your proposal on the assumption that his interest and income from the company will be at that kind of level.

A court can ultimately make a decision based on the information they are given, so if you go in saying "He won't declare or provide information about his interests in the family company, but the balance sheet as at April 2020 showed a value of £100,000, I believe he is a 50% shareholder so his interest is worth £50,000 and his dividend income is around £20,000  a years based on the last set of accounts at companies house", then the court can decide that they will accept that estimate if he doesn't produce evidence to disprove it. similarly, if he won't disclose the savings account you can say that it's clear he has an account, he has declined to provide any details and you believe that he has £xxx in savings - or just that he has substantial savings 

burlingtonfl6

Asonedoorcloses said:

Just wanted to see if there was a bit of advice for me, Im struggling to work out what proposal to make my ex due to not having full disclosure of all assets/savings.
Bit of background, married for 5yrs, lived together for 9 and separated now for 18 months. 2 children of opposite sex 8 and 3, joint names on the deeds and mortgage of the FH. Equity in house approx £170,000 (after fees paid etc) both have pensions of around £25,000 but I havent worked since our youngest was born and only worked part time after our eldest was born and before I went on maternity again. It was a joint decision as it didnt make sense for me to work and us pay childcare. I have been looking for employment for over a year but with the current crisis it has been impossible for many reasons. When my youngest starts school in September and things have settled down I will work as much as I can but it will only be on a minimum wage. I have had advice from a mortgage advisor that I have little hope of securing a mortgage until I start earning a decent wage and so cannot buy another property when the FH is sold (I cannot take on the mortgage alone). I will need to rent privately and in the area we live in will be at least £1500 per month for a 3 bedroomed house.
I dont have any savings or other assets and no debts.
He will not disclose a savings account that I have flagged up on his Form E (clear evidence there is one which hasnt been disclosed), nor will he provide share valuations that he holds in his families limited company. He also receives dividends on top of his basic wage and whilst these were reduced and have now stopped due to Covid, there is no doubt they will resume but again he will not help matters by giving any indication of when. Without dividends he earns £1350 per month, with dividends and before Covid he was getting £2700 on top so a total of over £4000 a month. He has no other assets (apart from the jointly owned family car worth £2500) or debts.
He has voiced a few times that he wants to settle out of court but I have said I would like a clear idea of our finances before making any decisions and am prepared to let things go to court for a judge to decide if he continues to be obstructive. He will not respond to the questionnaire and subsequently the schedule of deficiencies I filed regarding disparities on his Form E. He has also not followed the last court order to answer these. 

 I am only getting advice from a solicitor as and when so really Im representing myself. I have been told I can either make an offer based on what I know (no idea where to start on this) or I can leave it until our FDR in July. I am worried it will go against me not having attempted any proposal....so based on all of this, does anyone have any words of advice? Would asking for 80/20 equity in my favour and not touching our pensions (as they are worth nearly the same amount) be totally unreasonable? That would give him slightly more than a 15% deposit on a £200,000 property (2 bed around here) considering he would be able to then get a mortgage alone. With the non disclosure of shares and savings I have no idea of what he has been putting away this past 18months and if his earnings increase significantly in the near future he will be better off than us anyway.

Why stop at 80? Go for 100%.
Do you think you deserve to be in the same financial situation after the divorce?