Care home or nursing home fees

Mistermeaner

A few questions regards how this all works - I've done somegoogling but a few things still unclear ;

- If someone has assets above 23k ish they will be self funding and have to pay for their care : this is clear
- House and savings are included in this asset calc
- So if someone needs to go into a care home and their assets are above threshold they have to pay
- Question : if their pension income (state plus private) is sufficient to cover costs i assume they do not have to hand over any assets ?
- Question: in above scenario if pension income covers most of costs of care I assume liquidated assets are used only to cover the difference
- Question: in event of selling house to cover care fees does the council take all the proceeds upfront and reimburse the estate any left over or only take  what's owing   on a gradual basis 
- Question: if someone did give away savings or sell their home thus depriving assets prior to going into care i understand that the council will assess their wealth as if they hadn't given away said assets but then what does the council do about recovery ? Can they pursue relatives who were beneficiaries to recover deprived assets ?
- Question : is there any cap on the amount a council can take - Google suggests not but there is 1 bbc article which suggests max that can be taken is 70something K

Thanks for any help : asking on behalf of an elderly relative 

elsien

1. and 2. They need to ensure the fees are paid. How they do that is up to them. As a self funder they could also claim attendance allowance. 

If they have nursing needs and are entitled to full health funding they wouldn’t pay anything. Health funding however is not easy to get and can be withdrawn if they no longer meet the criteria.
3. The local authority does not claim any proceeds. If the house needs to be sold, then whoever manages the money pays the fees as they are billed by the care home.  In some circumstances there can be a deferred payment agreement with the local authority so payments is made when the house is sold. 

There are also some exceptions where the property isn’t taken into account in a financial settlement. 

Age Uk have a very good factsheet about care home fees. 

4. The local authority can take action to recover money where there has been deliberate deprivation of assets. 

5. There is no cap - it was mooted but didn’t happen,

Your relative should bear in mind that many people are able to stay at home with support and never need residential or nursing care.
They should also consider making power of attorney for both finances and health/welfare. It can be incredibly stressful for families whose relatives suddenly become very ill/lose capacity and having other people making decisions, or having to apply to the Court of Protection to access any money makes it worse. 

And I will finish by saying having money gives you choices rather than being plonked wherever there is a cheap bed. Your relative may wish to discuss with their family if they would prefer the money, or to ensure that their family member has a good quality of care in a home that they like, should it come to it. 

Gavin83

I think you’re coming from the wrong position with this. Ultimately the care home will present the POA nominee with the bill, hows that’s paid is irrelevant to them. As long as it’s paid it can come from pensions, assets, whatever and there’s nothing saying the property has to be sold.

Just as a side note the person entering care will almost certainly be entitled to attendance allowance which is about £65ish a week. This can also be used towards the cost of the bill.

In regards to your last question there is no cap. It was touted as being a Tory manifesto pledge but everyone ripped into them for it and therefore they never went ahead with it.

Your last remaining question is the most interesting. You are correct in assuming they’ll be assessed as if still owning the assets. If a relative has taken these assets the council can and do present them with the bill. 

I know of someone who was left significantly out of pocket and effectively had their life ruined via this exact method. They took their mothers house, sold it and used the money to pay off their own mortgage and retire. They were then presented with a large care bill, around £80k, refused any settlement and it ended up in court and they lost the case. They had to pay the full amount plus substantial legal fees. Last I heard they had to return to work, into a much lower paid job and remortgage their house to cover the bill.

I guess the moral of the story above is to tread carefully.

74jax

Mistermeaner said:

A few questions regards how this all works - I've done somegoogling but a few things still unclear ;

- If someone has assets above 23k ish they will be self funding and have to pay for their care : this is clear
- House and savings are included in this asset calc
- So if someone needs to go into a care home and their assets are above threshold they have to pay
- Question : if their pension income (state plus private) is sufficient to cover costs i assume they do not have to hand over any assets ?
- Question: in above scenario if pension income covers most of costs of care I assume liquidated assets are used only to cover the difference
- Question: in event of selling house to cover care fees does the council take all the proceeds upfront and reimburse the estate any left over or only take  what's owing   on a gradual basis 
- Question: if someone did give away savings or sell their home thus depriving assets prior to going into care i understand that the council will assess their wealth as if they hadn't given away said assets but then what does the council do about recovery ? Can they pursue relatives who were beneficiaries to recover deprived assets ?
- Question : is there any cap on the amount a council can take - Google suggests not but there is 1 bbc article which suggests max that can be taken is 70something K

Thanks for any help : asking on behalf of an elderly relative 

In my case I had recieved the payment (with my brother).  Yes we just paid the money direct to the care home to cover costs. The invoice was in my parents name c/o myself and I just paid the top up fee. 

pollypenny

74jax said:

Mistermeaner said:

A few questions regards how this all works - I've done somegoogling but a few things still unclear ;

- If someone has assets above 23k ish they will be self funding and have to pay for their care : this is clear
- House and savings are included in this asset calc
- So if someone needs to go into a care home and their assets are above threshold they have to pay
- Question : if their pension income (state plus private) is sufficient to cover costs i assume they do not have to hand over any assets ?
- Question: in above scenario if pension income covers most of costs of care I assume liquidated assets are used only to cover the difference
- Question: in event of selling house to cover care fees does the council take all the proceeds upfront and reimburse the estate any left over or only take  what's owing   on a gradual basis 
- Question: if someone did give away savings or sell their home thus depriving assets prior to going into care i understand that the council will assess their wealth as if they hadn't given away said assets but then what does the council do about recovery ? Can they pursue relatives who were beneficiaries to recover deprived assets ?
- Question : is there any cap on the amount a council can take - Google suggests not but there is 1 bbc article which suggests max that can be taken is 70something K

Thanks for any help : asking on behalf of an elderly relative 

In my case I had recieved the payment (with my brother).  Yes we just paid the money direct to the care home to cover costs. The invoice was in my parents name c/o myself and I just paid the top up fee. 

Only 'top up fee'?   Wow, the council, ie tax payer paid the lion's share.  

74jax

pollypenny said:

74jax said:

Mistermeaner said:

A few questions regards how this all works - I've done somegoogling but a few things still unclear ;

- If someone has assets above 23k ish they will be self funding and have to pay for their care : this is clear
- House and savings are included in this asset calc
- So if someone needs to go into a care home and their assets are above threshold they have to pay
- Question : if their pension income (state plus private) is sufficient to cover costs i assume they do not have to hand over any assets ?
- Question: in above scenario if pension income covers most of costs of care I assume liquidated assets are used only to cover the difference
- Question: in event of selling house to cover care fees does the council take all the proceeds upfront and reimburse the estate any left over or only take  what's owing   on a gradual basis 
- Question: if someone did give away savings or sell their home thus depriving assets prior to going into care i understand that the council will assess their wealth as if they hadn't given away said assets but then what does the council do about recovery ? Can they pursue relatives who were beneficiaries to recover deprived assets ?
- Question : is there any cap on the amount a council can take - Google suggests not but there is 1 bbc article which suggests max that can be taken is 70something K

Thanks for any help : asking on behalf of an elderly relative 

In my case I had recieved the payment (with my brother).  Yes we just paid the money direct to the care home to cover costs. The invoice was in my parents name c/o myself and I just paid the top up fee. 

Only 'top up fee'?   Wow, the council, ie tax payer paid the lion's share.  

No the council never came into it really, for payments anyway.  However they were amazingly helpful and I think the OP will find them much more open and approachable than they think - unless we just had very nice social workers.....
As we had PoA for her, they were happy really in whatever way we paid, it didn't seem to be the fact it had to be ONE way.  As long as the bill was paid all was ok.  So Mam still received her pension direct - it didn't go straight to the care home, so that with savings each month and the money we had, covered it - it made more sense to us to apportion it so it was pension / part savings and we topped up the remainder.  It was all very straightforward, I have documented it on here but it's probably many pages deep.......
Each year we had to fill out forms stating we were paying ourselves and didn't require funding, this again was very straightforward and was simply a form that we completed giving financial info for the last few years.  I quite like paperwork so it was no bother.
I think the op will be surprised at how simple it is, if they just follow it all methodically.  You also have the benefit of course of choosing the care and have a greater amount of say in things this way.

Gavin83

pollypenny said:

74jax said:

Mistermeaner said:

A few questions regards how this all works - I've done somegoogling but a few things still unclear ;

- If someone has assets above 23k ish they will be self funding and have to pay for their care : this is clear
- House and savings are included in this asset calc
- So if someone needs to go into a care home and their assets are above threshold they have to pay
- Question : if their pension income (state plus private) is sufficient to cover costs i assume they do not have to hand over any assets ?
- Question: in above scenario if pension income covers most of costs of care I assume liquidated assets are used only to cover the difference
- Question: in event of selling house to cover care fees does the council take all the proceeds upfront and reimburse the estate any left over or only take  what's owing   on a gradual basis 
- Question: if someone did give away savings or sell their home thus depriving assets prior to going into care i understand that the council will assess their wealth as if they hadn't given away said assets but then what does the council do about recovery ? Can they pursue relatives who were beneficiaries to recover deprived assets ?
- Question : is there any cap on the amount a council can take - Google suggests not but there is 1 bbc article which suggests max that can be taken is 70something K

Thanks for any help : asking on behalf of an elderly relative 

In my case I had recieved the payment (with my brother).  Yes we just paid the money direct to the care home to cover costs. The invoice was in my parents name c/o myself and I just paid the top up fee. 

Only 'top up fee'?   Wow, the council, ie tax payer paid the lion's share.  

I did slightly hint at this in my post but if a resident is self funded the council won’t really be involved, certainly from a financial perspective. The residents representatives will pay the care home directly.

pollypenny

74jax said:

pollypenny said:

74jax said:

Mistermeaner said:

A few questions regards how this all works - I've done somegoogling but a few things still unclear ;

- If someone has assets above 23k ish they will be self funding and have to pay for their care : this is clear
- House and savings are included in this asset calc
- So if someone needs to go into a care home and their assets are above threshold they have to pay
- Question : if their pension income (state plus private) is sufficient to cover costs i assume they do not have to hand over any assets ?
- Question: in above scenario if pension income covers most of costs of care I assume liquidated assets are used only to cover the difference
- Question: in event of selling house to cover care fees does the council take all the proceeds upfront and reimburse the estate any left over or only take  what's owing   on a gradual basis 
- Question: if someone did give away savings or sell their home thus depriving assets prior to going into care i understand that the council will assess their wealth as if they hadn't given away said assets but then what does the council do about recovery ? Can they pursue relatives who were beneficiaries to recover deprived assets ?
- Question : is there any cap on the amount a council can take - Google suggests not but there is 1 bbc article which suggests max that can be taken is 70something K

Thanks for any help : asking on behalf of an elderly relative 

In my case I had recieved the payment (with my brother).  Yes we just paid the money direct to the care home to cover costs. The invoice was in my parents name c/o myself and I just paid the top up fee. 

Only 'top up fee'?   Wow, the council, ie tax payer paid the lion's share.  

No the council never came into it really, for payments anyway.  However they were amazingly helpful and I think the OP will find them much more open and approachable than they think - unless we just had very nice social workers.....
As we had PoA for her, they were happy really in whatever way we paid, it didn't seem to be the fact it had to be ONE way.  As long as the bill was paid all was ok.  So Mam still received her pension direct - it didn't go straight to the care home, so that with savings each month and the money we had, covered it - it made more sense to us to apportion it so it was pension / part savings and we topped up the remainder.  It was all very straightforward, I have documented it on here but it's probably many pages deep.......
Each year we had to fill out forms stating we were paying ourselves and didn't require funding, this again was very straightforward and was simply a form that we completed giving financial info for the last few years.  I quite like paperwork so it was no bother.
I think the op will be surprised at how simple it is, if they just follow it all methodically.  You also have the benefit of course of choosing the care and have a greater amount of say in things this way.

Ok, apologies for thinking that you were exploiting the system. 

You were lucky to find it easy, though. We had hell with the council when my father went into a residential home. Firstly 'Kyle' told me that when father's money ran out he wouldn't be funded by the council. Actually, he kept referring to 'your mother'.  He seemed to want father to be council funded. 

After I complained, I had an apology which end with good wishes for 'Mr Penny's stay in ..'
Needless to say, my maiden name was not Penny.