EWS1 Issues and Advice

oobrien39

I was wondering if anyone could give me advice on EWS1 forms or perhaps has been in a similar position to me.

I have had an offer accepted for a flat and the EWS1 form has returned a B1 rating meaning that remedial work is not currently needed although there are flammable materials present on the buildings exterior. The flammable materials compose of timber frames that are completely enclosed in the outer sheeting.

 

This only became apparent when my proposed mortgage lenders cancelled their valuation of the flat due to the B1 rating.

 

I understand that there are lenders out there that are happy with B1 but I am worried about whether I will have to foot the bill of any remedial work in 5 years time when the next EWS1 survey is due. Does anyone have any idea on what the chances are of the rating coming back as B2 in the future? My assumption would be that if the rules stay the same, why would the rating of the building ever change?

 

Has anyone else had similar experiences and got any advice on whether I should proceed past this point?

annetheman

Long story short it is the risk you take with a B1. I have had my building's B1 accepted and the FRA revealed it was so rated because of timber composite decking on the stacked balconies. 

For this reason, I proceeded [freehold houses out of price range entirely within 100 miles] - average costs I've seen to remediate balcony decking (if it ever needs remediating) are between £2-5,000 per flat. I can live with that, but something like an entire exterior rebuild would cost £10,000s so I would not have proceeded, even if it said no remediation is required now.

The govt have moved the goalposts before without warning and preparation for building owners/leaseholders, this incompetent MHCLG very well could again. They are complicit in their knowledge of the growing crisis and want to cover themselves.

Can you reaserch rough estimates for the costs of the work to the timber frame you describe? Use that to be the deciding factor for yourself?

I have heard of B1s being downgraded to B2s before but those were when previously "compliant" materials were rated non-compliant elsewhere, causing the original EWS1 to be downgraded. 

It's a risk of course with a B1 but at least you know what exactly the fire safety issues are, so if you can have a look at rough costs, it'll give you an idea of what you could be liable for if you go ahead. 

That being said, things could change - notwithstanding the vote on the Fire Safety Bill happening on Weds. Watch this space...Good luck!

oobrien39

Thanks so much for coming back to me!

I will look into whether I can price up what any future repairs cost. It’s a pretty frustrating position to be in as on the face of it the flat is good value for money and I really like it. 

It seems a shame to have to pull out of a purchase for a potential scenario when the rules could look significantly different in just 6 months time. 

NameUnavailable

Freeholders can stand to make a nice profit out of 'remedial' works being carried out, so even if not absolutely necessary they may decide to do works on the reasoning that they are ensuring the absolute safety of the block and residents. It would be a hard one to argue at Tribunal.

nightingale101

Hi there, I had the same exact thing happen to me. I originally offered based on A1 rating but stuff happened and a new certificate showed B1 which I wasn't too happy about. I called up RICS to ask why would it change so suddenly in a matter of months when nothing has changed about the building and they said it could just be government constantly changing the guidelines which to me made the purchase very high risk because you just don't know what the guidelines are going to be in 5 years time when the certificate is expired. I am now avoiding all properties that have cladding regardless of whether the certificate is valid or not.

annetheman

nightingale101 said:

I am now avoiding all properties that have cladding regardless of whether the certificate is valid or not.

Probably best to avoid flats full stop. It’s not just cladding (which virtually all modern buildings have, eg brick cladding, glass cladding, concrete = “non flammable” cladding; ACM, EPS = “flammable” cladding). 

I know of many buildings that are brick clad and have B2 because the insulation underneath is flammable. 

The valuer could ask for it for ANY flat building and they do, even maisonettes. Best to just buy a freehold house! Then at least it’s your problem only as the freeholder

nightingale101

annetheman said:

nightingale101 said:

I am now avoiding all properties that have cladding regardless of whether the certificate is valid or not.

Probably best to avoid flats full stop. It’s not just cladding (which virtually all modern buildings have, eg brick cladding, glass cladding, concrete = “non flammable” cladding; ACM, EPS = “flammable” cladding). 

I know of many buildings that are brick clad and have B2 because the insulation underneath is flammable. 

The valuer could ask for it for ANY flat building and they do, even maisonettes. Best to just buy a freehold house! Then at least it’s your problem only as the freeholder

I've started looking at conversion flats now from old Victorian/Georgian/Edwardian houses. They come with other problems but less likely this cladding issue and even if there is, it'll be a remedial work of 3/4 flats together rather than 100s if that makes sense?

annetheman

nightingale101 said:

annetheman said:

nightingale101 said:

I am now avoiding all properties that have cladding regardless of whether the certificate is valid or not.

Probably best to avoid flats full stop. It’s not just cladding (which virtually all modern buildings have, eg brick cladding, glass cladding, concrete = “non flammable” cladding; ACM, EPS = “flammable” cladding). 

I know of many buildings that are brick clad and have B2 because the insulation underneath is flammable. 

The valuer could ask for it for ANY flat building and they do, even maisonettes. Best to just buy a freehold house! Then at least it’s your problem only as the freeholder

I've started looking at conversion flats now from old Victorian/Georgian/Edwardian houses. They come with other problems but less likely this cladding issue and even if there is, it'll be a remedial work of 3/4 flats together rather than 100s if that makes sense?

Yes, if you are in a smaller building the remediation building is obviously smaller. 

The risk is still there, just go for a freehold house. Read section 7.9 of Approved Document B: once any building is converted, document B applies. I.e. do the flat conversions have adequate compartmentation? Are all materials used in the external wall system meet requirements for "class 0" (non flammable)? Any change to the regs would still apply to a conversion.

Issue is that valuers can and are asking for it on anything, even maisonettes, so it's being applied all over the place to buildings that really shouldn't need it (this seemed to be a revelation to govt, who only admitted around Nov that they "know it's being asked for where it is not required") - we all knew this since Jan 2020 advice note. 

The thing about the misnomer-ed cladding scandal (really a building safety scandal) is that until central govt acts, it just gets worse every day. More people get dragged into it when they try to move/sell/remortgage. Lenders not budging, RICS scared to make things even worse. Until central govt get on with risk-classification and propose their own solution mandated by law, since EWS1 is not, lenders' valuers will ask for it whenever they see "flat". The odd one might not.

MESS!

nightingale101

annetheman said:

nightingale101 said:

annetheman said:

nightingale101 said:

I am now avoiding all properties that have cladding regardless of whether the certificate is valid or not.

Probably best to avoid flats full stop. It’s not just cladding (which virtually all modern buildings have, eg brick cladding, glass cladding, concrete = “non flammable” cladding; ACM, EPS = “flammable” cladding). 

I know of many buildings that are brick clad and have B2 because the insulation underneath is flammable. 

The valuer could ask for it for ANY flat building and they do, even maisonettes. Best to just buy a freehold house! Then at least it’s your problem only as the freeholder

I've started looking at conversion flats now from old Victorian/Georgian/Edwardian houses. They come with other problems but less likely this cladding issue and even if there is, it'll be a remedial work of 3/4 flats together rather than 100s if that makes sense?

Yes, if you are in a smaller building the remediation building is obviously smaller. 

The risk is still there, just go for a freehold house. Read section 7.9 of Approved Document B: once any building is converted, document B applies. I.e. do the flat conversions have adequate compartmentation? Are all materials used in the external wall system meet requirements for "class 0" (non flammable)? Any change to the regs would still apply to a conversion.

Issue is that valuers can and are asking for it on anything, even maisonettes, so it's being applied all over the place to buildings that really shouldn't need it (this seemed to be a revelation to govt, who only admitted around Nov that they "know it's being asked for where it is not required") - we all knew this since Jan 2020 advice note. 

The thing about the misnomer-ed cladding scandal (really a building safety scandal) is that until central govt acts, it just gets worse every day. More people get dragged into it when they try to move/sell/remortgage. Lenders not budging, RICS scared to make things even worse. Until central govt get on with risk-classification and propose their own solution mandated by law, since EWS1 is not, lenders' valuers will ask for it whenever they see "flat". The odd one might not.

MESS!

It says that if there is a material change of use. That's if the building contains combustable cladding but if it has no cladding at all then I don't see why that particular conversion flat would be subject to obtaining an EWS1 certificate? Also haven't looked too into it but according to this article https://www.ftadviser.com/mortgages/2020/11/23/ews1-forms-scrapped-for-buildings-without-cladding/ the forms won't be needed for buildings without cladding?

annetheman

nightingale101 said:

annetheman said:

nightingale101 said:

annetheman said:

nightingale101 said:

I am now avoiding all properties that have cladding regardless of whether the certificate is valid or not.

Probably best to avoid flats full stop. It’s not just cladding (which virtually all modern buildings have, eg brick cladding, glass cladding, concrete = “non flammable” cladding; ACM, EPS = “flammable” cladding). 

I know of many buildings that are brick clad and have B2 because the insulation underneath is flammable. 

The valuer could ask for it for ANY flat building and they do, even maisonettes. Best to just buy a freehold house! Then at least it’s your problem only as the freeholder

I've started looking at conversion flats now from old Victorian/Georgian/Edwardian houses. They come with other problems but less likely this cladding issue and even if there is, it'll be a remedial work of 3/4 flats together rather than 100s if that makes sense?

Yes, if you are in a smaller building the remediation building is obviously smaller. 

The risk is still there, just go for a freehold house. Read section 7.9 of Approved Document B: once any building is converted, document B applies. I.e. do the flat conversions have adequate compartmentation? Are all materials used in the external wall system meet requirements for "class 0" (non flammable)? Any change to the regs would still apply to a conversion.

Issue is that valuers can and are asking for it on anything, even maisonettes, so it's being applied all over the place to buildings that really shouldn't need it (this seemed to be a revelation to govt, who only admitted around Nov that they "know it's being asked for where it is not required") - we all knew this since Jan 2020 advice note. 

The thing about the misnomer-ed cladding scandal (really a building safety scandal) is that until central govt acts, it just gets worse every day. More people get dragged into it when they try to move/sell/remortgage. Lenders not budging, RICS scared to make things even worse. Until central govt get on with risk-classification and propose their own solution mandated by law, since EWS1 is not, lenders' valuers will ask for it whenever they see "flat". The odd one might not.

MESS!

It says that if there is a material change of use. That's if the building contains combustable cladding but if it has no cladding at all then I don't see why that particular conversion flat would be subject to obtaining an EWS1 certificate? Also haven't looked too into it but according to this article https://www.ftadviser.com/mortgages/2020/11/23/ews1-forms-scrapped-for-buildings-without-cladding/ the forms won't be needed for buildings without cladding?

@nightingale101
Yes - a conversation is a material change of use from a single occupancy building to a multiple occupancy building, to which Document B applies. 

EWS1 has never been for buildings "with cladding" - they are for buildings above 18m. Again, all residential buildings have sort sort of cladding. Here is my thread about that Nov announcement you linked to, which the chief executives of both the Building Societies Association (representing all building societies) and UK Finance (basically all mortgage-lending banks) said they did not agree to anything he said and have no idea where the numbers he quoted came from.

You can search the hashtag #EndOurCladdingScandal on twitter to see just how wide the scope of application is. Every single type of multi occupancy building (i.e. flats) has to comply by document B i.e. walls must meet the standards set in there - apparently, nobody has any faith in the building industry and rightly so (Grenfell inquiry revealing some open secrets). It'll just get even more ridiculous unless central govt act effectively. Inevitable knock on effect on rest of market too.

As I mentioned above, govt moved goal posts before. They could again; it's a total a mess you can only avoid by buying a freehold house.

nightingale101

annetheman said:

nightingale101 said:

annetheman said:

nightingale101 said:

annetheman said:

nightingale101 said:

I am now avoiding all properties that have cladding regardless of whether the certificate is valid or not.

Probably best to avoid flats full stop. It’s not just cladding (which virtually all modern buildings have, eg brick cladding, glass cladding, concrete = “non flammable” cladding; ACM, EPS = “flammable” cladding). 

I know of many buildings that are brick clad and have B2 because the insulation underneath is flammable. 

The valuer could ask for it for ANY flat building and they do, even maisonettes. Best to just buy a freehold house! Then at least it’s your problem only as the freeholder

I've started looking at conversion flats now from old Victorian/Georgian/Edwardian houses. They come with other problems but less likely this cladding issue and even if there is, it'll be a remedial work of 3/4 flats together rather than 100s if that makes sense?

Yes, if you are in a smaller building the remediation building is obviously smaller. 

The risk is still there, just go for a freehold house. Read section 7.9 of Approved Document B: once any building is converted, document B applies. I.e. do the flat conversions have adequate compartmentation? Are all materials used in the external wall system meet requirements for "class 0" (non flammable)? Any change to the regs would still apply to a conversion.

Issue is that valuers can and are asking for it on anything, even maisonettes, so it's being applied all over the place to buildings that really shouldn't need it (this seemed to be a revelation to govt, who only admitted around Nov that they "know it's being asked for where it is not required") - we all knew this since Jan 2020 advice note. 

The thing about the misnomer-ed cladding scandal (really a building safety scandal) is that until central govt acts, it just gets worse every day. More people get dragged into it when they try to move/sell/remortgage. Lenders not budging, RICS scared to make things even worse. Until central govt get on with risk-classification and propose their own solution mandated by law, since EWS1 is not, lenders' valuers will ask for it whenever they see "flat". The odd one might not.

MESS!

It says that if there is a material change of use. That's if the building contains combustable cladding but if it has no cladding at all then I don't see why that particular conversion flat would be subject to obtaining an EWS1 certificate? Also haven't looked too into it but according to this article https://www.ftadviser.com/mortgages/2020/11/23/ews1-forms-scrapped-for-buildings-without-cladding/ the forms won't be needed for buildings without cladding?

@nightingale101
Yes - a conversation is a material change of use from a single occupancy building to a multiple occupancy building, to which Document B applies. 

EWS1 has never been for buildings "with cladding" - they are for buildings above 18m. Again, all residential buildings have sort sort of cladding. Here is my thread about that Nov announcement you linked to, which the chief executives of both the Building Societies Association (representing all building societies) and UK Finance (basically all mortgage-lending banks) said they did not agree to anything he said and have no idea where the numbers he quoted came from.

You can search the hashtag #EndOurCladdingScandal on twitter to see just how wide the scope of application is. Every single type of multi occupancy building (i.e. flats) has to comply by document B i.e. walls must meet the standards set in there - apparently, nobody has any faith in the building industry and rightly so (Grenfell inquiry revealing some open secrets). It'll just get even more ridiculous unless central govt act effectively. Inevitable knock on effect on rest of market too.

As I mentioned above, govt moved goal posts before. They could again; it's a total a mess you can only avoid by buying a freehold house.

The older Victorian conversions are definitely not 18m so they wouldn't fall into this category though right? But are you saying that lenders because they don't know where 18m came from will still be hesitant to lend for any residential flat even if it is an old house from 1900s that has been converted and definitely doesn't have any cladding?

Yes I'm aware you won't have this issue with a freehold house but not like everyone can get that as a FTB. A flat is the only achievable way to get on the ladder.