Harassed by neighbour

williamgriffin

poppellerant said:

My advice would be to focus your anger towards writing your diary as and when things happen.  When I had problems with my neighbours a few years ago, I found it quite therapeutic typing my diary and it also helped me think of things I could do to improve the situation.

If you have a spare mobile phone, use this to make recordings.  It might even able to record 24/7 if you kept it on charge, providing it has enough free space.  Don't be afraid that taking videos or photos of somebody is illegal either - as long as it is purely for evidence and not for distributing to your friends or on social medial.

The problem with using anything digital to record onto is you need a good supply of them. If the police are doing their job properly then they should seize the device media is recorded onto if its to be used as evidence. 

Jeepers_Creepers

If not an 'asbo', some form of antisocial behaviour order - there will be something.

I speak from experience, Stand - a neighb who had a ridiculous sense of entitlement, burned disgusting rubbish (ultimately deliberately, I am sure), ranted about borders, and generally tried to be intimidating - which he was. I would avoid doing jobs outside if I knew he was also out, I'm now annoyed to admit.

I contacted Env Health about the fires, but they were - like the fire contents - complete rubbish ("We'll come out for a max three times on random occasions..." (This was a loong time ago, tho' - I think they're better now?) I asked a few other neighbs about it, but although they also hated the fires - and the guy - they didn't want to get involved as it didn't affect them so much, and the guy was intimidating.

So I started recording and taking photos of the rubbish piles, diary of incidences, things said etc, so that when I was forced to act - as I knew I would at some point - I'd have a full catalogue of incidents and not just the 'triggering' one.

I know what it feels like - that knot in your stomach, wondering what they are going to do next, and it was always something sneaky, almost under the radar (like dumping a huge pile of brambles on our drive overnight...). It's horrible, and I had two kids below 2 years old at the time and just wanted to enjoy life.

Whenever we had 'words', he'd rant and talk 'big' ("It's a shame we are not on the oil rigs now..." - which I presume meant it would be sorted 'man-to-man'!), becoming increasingly agitated and aggressive, and I would - gulp - laugh at his behaviour, deliberately chuckle and tell him I couldn't believe an adult was behaving like a child. I realised he was trying to do one of two things - intimidate me into submission, or else rise to the bait of acting like he was - both of us ranting. Becoming mouthy or aggressive back to him was the instinct, because you feel that anything less is allowing him to get one over on you, but thankfully I struck on the other way to respond - utter calm, a snort of derision, and an expression of disbelief at what I was seeing. Was it worrying? In a sense, but there was also the realisation that there was actually nothing he could actually do to me - it was almost certainly complete bluster, and if he was daft enough to come over and try it on, I would obviously defend myself - and then call the police, and he'd be completely stuffed; he'd have come on to my land, he'd have made the approach. It never came remotely to that, tho', because even tho' the guy was a b'tard (later even described as such by his own son...) he was not a complete fool (in fact he was from Grammar school stock...). His response when I ridiculed his behaviour was quite incredible - his temples did, in actual fact, 'pulsate', he became angry and agitated, but he never completely 'lost it' and he'd ultimately storm off. One time he leant right over the wall, waving his arms at me and shouting "Well, what are you going to do about it?!". I could either descend to his level and escalate it physically, I could walk away (ie, effectively lose in both cases) or laugh at him. So I chose the latter. He nearly had apoplexy.

Ultimately it was brought to ahead when he started leaning over our wall and cutting at our trees which were fully on our land. When I came out to ask what he was doing, he started chucking the bits at me - which I caught on the camera I took out with me. Called the cops, the Bobby's jaw dropped at the litany of issues, and he went straight over to tell him to "C&D". They suggested mediation, which we did. And the guy's behaviour before the mediator was 'normal'.

Peace reigned for a decade or so, and then he started with his fires again. Again, the knots - the 'what the hell?!'. I kept thinking surely it's a one-of? But no, they kept happening on a virtually daily occurrence. Again I recorded every one, along with photos and clips of the smoke generated, and even got some witnesses to note what the smells often included - felt, plastics, etc. When I finally had to act, I wanted a list of examples, not him being able to pass it off as a one-of. And on one particularly smoky day I went round, told him all the laws - criminal and 'by' - he was breaking, told him of all the evidence I had and told him "they have to stop - now."

He gave a surprisingly meek "OK - I'll put it out", because I'm sure he actually realised the game was up. I had him. All his many years of bluster and intimidation (which I later found had also been directed against his own son and the previous occupants of our house as well) which had presumably served him 'well' came to a halt, at least as far as I was concerned. He was a 'bully' in the true sense, with all its associated weaknesses.

I had been ready to call the cops and EnvHealth again if needed - I knew I had WAY more than enough for this (especially the witnesses who could attest to the foul nature of some of the items being burned) - but obviously wanted to avoid this for all the 'declaration' issues. (I will, tho', be open about the calibre of the neighb, but also that he can be put quickly back in his box if needed).

Just a couple of weeks after this last incident, I was putting the rubbish out early one frosty morning and opened the gates to find a hi-vised man with a bobble hat pulled down over his ears standing on the pavement outside. I assumed him to be one of the workmen who'd been digging up our road for the past while so gave him a loud and super-cheery "Goooood moorning!". He turned, and it was my neighb. He was utterly gobsmacked - his mouth opened and closed like a fish's - as he obviously thought I was either being assertive or sarcy (neither - I'd just made a mistake...). He gave a grunt, but didn't answer - he looked utterly flummoxed. He was picked up by someone in a van a minute or so later, looking very uncomfortable all the while, as I took my time arranging my recycling bins next to him. If I'm honest - if I'd known he was out there - I'd almost certainly have delayed going out. But I'm sooo pleased I made that error of recognition - it was quite an unexpected epiphany :-) 

(Oh, another thing I learned was that this guy's behaviour was just that - his. When the cop came back to tell me the result that first time, he said his wife came to the door and when the cop explained why he was here, he sensed exasperation from the wife; "Oh, you'll want my husband...". His son - although still part of the family - told me of incidences too, including that he'd done similar things to other neighbours before. Of course, in neighbourly disputes like this, often the wife (and very sadly sometimes the kids too) will be drawn in, but assume it's just the main protagonist until you know otherwise.)

Stand272, believe that this will be sorted - if you want it to be. If your neighb is really having a recorder from the council fitted, can you ask for one too - tell them it's for evidence to counter his - to show your noise levels are perfectly normal? Even if they say 'no', they'll get the message that you are confident of your case. Do NOT be intimidated by your neighbs (like I was); if you want to do anything in your garden or driveway, then do so. Act and behave normally - if a few of you are outside, talk, play, make normal noises as normal. 

If you pass them, nod, and say 'hello'. Be absolutely civil at all times. If a delivery fellow asks if you can keep a parcel for them, agree (like I always did) - it's quite funny when they have to come on to your land for a favour - they must hate that. And don't forget "You are welcome..." when they collect it |:-).

And keep calm. In any conversation, look them directly in the eye, keep telling yourself there is nothing they can do to you, and be ready to rebuff they claims with a simple "That is complete nonsense - as you know." Or "If you truly believe that, then you should call the police/council etc" Do NOT get drawn into arguments. End it - walk away when you want to - with a "This is pointless" or even, yes, "Whatevs!"

These folk have a bona fide personality disorder, akin to - or actually - NPD. They cannot cope with not being taken seriously. They twist and turn, move goalposts, attack with what they are accused of. Everything. But they cannot cope with not being taken seriously, being told they are deluded.  

And record it all.

williamgriffin

The OP won't get sound recording just because the neighbour has it. In the first instance they will need to make their own compliant about excessive noise and submit evidence to the council as to when it is happening. 

George_Michael

williamgriffin said:

Unless the OP is in Scotland there's no such thing as an asbo. 

What about if they are in Northern Ireland?

williamgriffin

George_Michael said:

williamgriffin said:

Unless the OP is in Scotland there's no such thing as an asbo. 

What about if they are in Northern Ireland?

What about it?

George_Michael

williamgriffin said:

George_Michael said:

williamgriffin said:

Unless the OP is in Scotland there's no such thing as an asbo. 

What about if they are in Northern Ireland?

What about it?

Well, if the OP is in NI, then their neighbour can be issued with an ASBO so your comment that:

Unless the OP is in Scotland there's no such thing as an asbo.

isn't totally correct.

williamgriffin

George_Michael said:

williamgriffin said:

George_Michael said:

williamgriffin said:

Unless the OP is in Scotland there's no such thing as an asbo. 

What about if they are in Northern Ireland?

What about it?

Well, if the OP is in NI, then their neighbour can be issued with an ASBO so your comment that:

Unless the OP is in Scotland there's no such thing as an asbo.

isn't totally correct.

Can they?

https://www.gov.uk/civil-injunctions-criminal-behaviour-orders

George_Michael

Fair enough.
I stand corrected.

stand272

Jeepers_Creepers said:

If not an 'asbo', some form of antisocial behaviour order - there will be something.

I speak from experience, Stand - a neighb who had a ridiculous sense of entitlement, burned disgusting rubbish (ultimately deliberately, I am sure), ranted about borders, and generally tried to be intimidating - which he was. I would avoid doing jobs outside if I knew he was also out, I'm now annoyed to admit.

I contacted Env Health about the fires, but they were - like the fire contents - complete rubbish ("We'll come out for a max three times on random occasions..." (This was a loong time ago, tho' - I think they're better now?) I asked a few other neighbs about it, but although they also hated the fires - and the guy - they didn't want to get involved as it didn't affect them so much, and the guy was intimidating.

So I started recording and taking photos of the rubbish piles, diary of incidences, things said etc, so that when I was forced to act - as I knew I would at some point - I'd have a full catalogue of incidents and not just the 'triggering' one.

I know what it feels like - that knot in your stomach, wondering what they are going to do next, and it was always something sneaky, almost under the radar (like dumping a huge pile of brambles on our drive overnight...). It's horrible, and I had two kids below 2 years old at the time and just wanted to enjoy life.

Whenever we had 'words', he'd rant and talk 'big' ("It's a shame we are not on the oil rigs now..." - which I presume meant it would be sorted 'man-to-man'!), becoming increasingly agitated and aggressive, and I would - gulp - laugh at his behaviour, deliberately chuckle and tell him I couldn't believe an adult was behaving like a child. I realised he was trying to do one of two things - intimidate me into submission, or else rise to the bait of acting like he was - both of us ranting. Becoming mouthy or aggressive back to him was the instinct, because you feel that anything less is allowing him to get one over on you, but thankfully I struck on the other way to respond - utter calm, a snort of derision, and an expression of disbelief at what I was seeing. Was it worrying? In a sense, but there was also the realisation that there was actually nothing he could actually do to me - it was almost certainly complete bluster, and if he was daft enough to come over and try it on, I would obviously defend myself - and then call the police, and he'd be completely stuffed; he'd have come on to my land, he'd have made the approach. It never came remotely to that, tho', because even tho' the guy was a b'tard (later even described as such by his own son...) he was not a complete fool (in fact he was from Grammar school stock...). His response when I ridiculed his behaviour was quite incredible - his temples did, in actual fact, 'pulsate', he became angry and agitated, but he never completely 'lost it' and he'd ultimately storm off. One time he leant right over the wall, waving his arms at me and shouting "Well, what are you going to do about it?!". I could either descend to his level and escalate it physically, I could walk away (ie, effectively lose in both cases) or laugh at him. So I chose the latter. He nearly had apoplexy.

Ultimately it was brought to ahead when he started leaning over our wall and cutting at our trees which were fully on our land. When I came out to ask what he was doing, he started chucking the bits at me - which I caught on the camera I took out with me. Called the cops, the Bobby's jaw dropped at the litany of issues, and he went straight over to tell him to "C&D". They suggested mediation, which we did. And the guy's behaviour before the mediator was 'normal'.

Peace reigned for a decade or so, and then he started with his fires again. Again, the knots - the 'what the hell?!'. I kept thinking surely it's a one-of? But no, they kept happening on a virtually daily occurrence. Again I recorded every one, along with photos and clips of the smoke generated, and even got some witnesses to note what the smells often included - felt, plastics, etc. When I finally had to act, I wanted a list of examples, not him being able to pass it off as a one-of. And on one particularly smoky day I went round, told him all the laws - criminal and 'by' - he was breaking, told him of all the evidence I had and told him "they have to stop - now."

He gave a surprisingly meek "OK - I'll put it out", because I'm sure he actually realised the game was up. I had him. All his many years of bluster and intimidation (which I later found had also been directed against his own son and the previous occupants of our house as well) which had presumably served him 'well' came to a halt, at least as far as I was concerned. He was a 'bully' in the true sense, with all its associated weaknesses.

I had been ready to call the cops and EnvHealth again if needed - I knew I had WAY more than enough for this (especially the witnesses who could attest to the foul nature of some of the items being burned) - but obviously wanted to avoid this for all the 'declaration' issues. (I will, tho', be open about the calibre of the neighb, but also that he can be put quickly back in his box if needed).

Just a couple of weeks after this last incident, I was putting the rubbish out early one frosty morning and opened the gates to find a hi-vised man with a bobble hat pulled down over his ears standing on the pavement outside. I assumed him to be one of the workmen who'd been digging up our road for the past while so gave him a loud and super-cheery "Goooood moorning!". He turned, and it was my neighb. He was utterly gobsmacked - his mouth opened and closed like a fish's - as he obviously thought I was either being assertive or sarcy (neither - I'd just made a mistake...). He gave a grunt, but didn't answer - he looked utterly flummoxed. He was picked up by someone in a van a minute or so later, looking very uncomfortable all the while, as I took my time arranging my recycling bins next to him. If I'm honest - if I'd known he was out there - I'd almost certainly have delayed going out. But I'm sooo pleased I made that error of recognition - it was quite an unexpected epiphany :-) 

(Oh, another thing I learned was that this guy's behaviour was just that - his. When the cop came back to tell me the result that first time, he said his wife came to the door and when the cop explained why he was here, he sensed exasperation from the wife; "Oh, you'll want my husband...". His son - although still part of the family - told me of incidences too, including that he'd done similar things to other neighbours before. Of course, in neighbourly disputes like this, often the wife (and very sadly sometimes the kids too) will be drawn in, but assume it's just the main protagonist until you know otherwise.)

Stand272, believe that this will be sorted - if you want it to be. If your neighb is really having a recorder from the council fitted, can you ask for one too - tell them it's for evidence to counter his - to show your noise levels are perfectly normal? Even if they say 'no', they'll get the message that you are confident of your case. Do NOT be intimidated by your neighbs (like I was); if you want to do anything in your garden or driveway, then do so. Act and behave normally - if a few of you are outside, talk, play, make normal noises as normal. 

If you pass them, nod, and say 'hello'. Be absolutely civil at all times. If a delivery fellow asks if you can keep a parcel for them, agree (like I always did) - it's quite funny when they have to come on to your land for a favour - they must hate that. And don't forget "You are welcome..." when they collect it |:-).

And keep calm. In any conversation, look them directly in the eye, keep telling yourself there is nothing they can do to you, and be ready to rebuff they claims with a simple "That is complete nonsense - as you know." Or "If you truly believe that, then you should call the police/council etc" Do NOT get drawn into arguments. End it - walk away when you want to - with a "This is pointless" or even, yes, "Whatevs!"

These folk have a bona fide personality disorder, akin to - or actually - NPD. They cannot cope with not being taken seriously. They twist and turn, move goalposts, attack with what they are accused of. Everything. But they cannot cope with not being taken seriously, being told they are deluded.  

And record it all.

Thank you for your detailed and extremely useful response. Although awful to hear, other people’s experiences can be very useful.

Reporting them to the police for harassment just a couple of days ago has certainly helped. Both the police and the council are now communicating with each other and have the full history. Of course their noise nuisance investigation still has to go ahead, but we’re ok with that now that they are aware of all of his awful behaviour that dates back years. The statements from a previous occupant and 3 other households on the street have really helped also. Some of the examples of his behaviour in our neighbours statements were truly eye opening. The police were surprised why they hadn’t had more reports in the past, but I think the average family on the street wants to avoid that at all costs, just like we did. People are scared of confrontation, reluctant to create further animosity and of complications involved with declarations on house purchase paperwork. However, I believe this sort of behaviour will always catch up with you in the end!

williamgriffin

stand272 said:

Jeepers_Creepers said:

If not an 'asbo', some form of antisocial behaviour order - there will be something.

I speak from experience, Stand - a neighb who had a ridiculous sense of entitlement, burned disgusting rubbish (ultimately deliberately, I am sure), ranted about borders, and generally tried to be intimidating - which he was. I would avoid doing jobs outside if I knew he was also out, I'm now annoyed to admit.

I contacted Env Health about the fires, but they were - like the fire contents - complete rubbish ("We'll come out for a max three times on random occasions..." (This was a loong time ago, tho' - I think they're better now?) I asked a few other neighbs about it, but although they also hated the fires - and the guy - they didn't want to get involved as it didn't affect them so much, and the guy was intimidating.

So I started recording and taking photos of the rubbish piles, diary of incidences, things said etc, so that when I was forced to act - as I knew I would at some point - I'd have a full catalogue of incidents and not just the 'triggering' one.

I know what it feels like - that knot in your stomach, wondering what they are going to do next, and it was always something sneaky, almost under the radar (like dumping a huge pile of brambles on our drive overnight...). It's horrible, and I had two kids below 2 years old at the time and just wanted to enjoy life.

Whenever we had 'words', he'd rant and talk 'big' ("It's a shame we are not on the oil rigs now..." - which I presume meant it would be sorted 'man-to-man'!), becoming increasingly agitated and aggressive, and I would - gulp - laugh at his behaviour, deliberately chuckle and tell him I couldn't believe an adult was behaving like a child. I realised he was trying to do one of two things - intimidate me into submission, or else rise to the bait of acting like he was - both of us ranting. Becoming mouthy or aggressive back to him was the instinct, because you feel that anything less is allowing him to get one over on you, but thankfully I struck on the other way to respond - utter calm, a snort of derision, and an expression of disbelief at what I was seeing. Was it worrying? In a sense, but there was also the realisation that there was actually nothing he could actually do to me - it was almost certainly complete bluster, and if he was daft enough to come over and try it on, I would obviously defend myself - and then call the police, and he'd be completely stuffed; he'd have come on to my land, he'd have made the approach. It never came remotely to that, tho', because even tho' the guy was a b'tard (later even described as such by his own son...) he was not a complete fool (in fact he was from Grammar school stock...). His response when I ridiculed his behaviour was quite incredible - his temples did, in actual fact, 'pulsate', he became angry and agitated, but he never completely 'lost it' and he'd ultimately storm off. One time he leant right over the wall, waving his arms at me and shouting "Well, what are you going to do about it?!". I could either descend to his level and escalate it physically, I could walk away (ie, effectively lose in both cases) or laugh at him. So I chose the latter. He nearly had apoplexy.

Ultimately it was brought to ahead when he started leaning over our wall and cutting at our trees which were fully on our land. When I came out to ask what he was doing, he started chucking the bits at me - which I caught on the camera I took out with me. Called the cops, the Bobby's jaw dropped at the litany of issues, and he went straight over to tell him to "C&D". They suggested mediation, which we did. And the guy's behaviour before the mediator was 'normal'.

Peace reigned for a decade or so, and then he started with his fires again. Again, the knots - the 'what the hell?!'. I kept thinking surely it's a one-of? But no, they kept happening on a virtually daily occurrence. Again I recorded every one, along with photos and clips of the smoke generated, and even got some witnesses to note what the smells often included - felt, plastics, etc. When I finally had to act, I wanted a list of examples, not him being able to pass it off as a one-of. And on one particularly smoky day I went round, told him all the laws - criminal and 'by' - he was breaking, told him of all the evidence I had and told him "they have to stop - now."

He gave a surprisingly meek "OK - I'll put it out", because I'm sure he actually realised the game was up. I had him. All his many years of bluster and intimidation (which I later found had also been directed against his own son and the previous occupants of our house as well) which had presumably served him 'well' came to a halt, at least as far as I was concerned. He was a 'bully' in the true sense, with all its associated weaknesses.

I had been ready to call the cops and EnvHealth again if needed - I knew I had WAY more than enough for this (especially the witnesses who could attest to the foul nature of some of the items being burned) - but obviously wanted to avoid this for all the 'declaration' issues. (I will, tho', be open about the calibre of the neighb, but also that he can be put quickly back in his box if needed).

Just a couple of weeks after this last incident, I was putting the rubbish out early one frosty morning and opened the gates to find a hi-vised man with a bobble hat pulled down over his ears standing on the pavement outside. I assumed him to be one of the workmen who'd been digging up our road for the past while so gave him a loud and super-cheery "Goooood moorning!". He turned, and it was my neighb. He was utterly gobsmacked - his mouth opened and closed like a fish's - as he obviously thought I was either being assertive or sarcy (neither - I'd just made a mistake...). He gave a grunt, but didn't answer - he looked utterly flummoxed. He was picked up by someone in a van a minute or so later, looking very uncomfortable all the while, as I took my time arranging my recycling bins next to him. If I'm honest - if I'd known he was out there - I'd almost certainly have delayed going out. But I'm sooo pleased I made that error of recognition - it was quite an unexpected epiphany :-) 

(Oh, another thing I learned was that this guy's behaviour was just that - his. When the cop came back to tell me the result that first time, he said his wife came to the door and when the cop explained why he was here, he sensed exasperation from the wife; "Oh, you'll want my husband...". His son - although still part of the family - told me of incidences too, including that he'd done similar things to other neighbours before. Of course, in neighbourly disputes like this, often the wife (and very sadly sometimes the kids too) will be drawn in, but assume it's just the main protagonist until you know otherwise.)

Stand272, believe that this will be sorted - if you want it to be. If your neighb is really having a recorder from the council fitted, can you ask for one too - tell them it's for evidence to counter his - to show your noise levels are perfectly normal? Even if they say 'no', they'll get the message that you are confident of your case. Do NOT be intimidated by your neighbs (like I was); if you want to do anything in your garden or driveway, then do so. Act and behave normally - if a few of you are outside, talk, play, make normal noises as normal. 

If you pass them, nod, and say 'hello'. Be absolutely civil at all times. If a delivery fellow asks if you can keep a parcel for them, agree (like I always did) - it's quite funny when they have to come on to your land for a favour - they must hate that. And don't forget "You are welcome..." when they collect it |:-).

And keep calm. In any conversation, look them directly in the eye, keep telling yourself there is nothing they can do to you, and be ready to rebuff they claims with a simple "That is complete nonsense - as you know." Or "If you truly believe that, then you should call the police/council etc" Do NOT get drawn into arguments. End it - walk away when you want to - with a "This is pointless" or even, yes, "Whatevs!"

These folk have a bona fide personality disorder, akin to - or actually - NPD. They cannot cope with not being taken seriously. They twist and turn, move goalposts, attack with what they are accused of. Everything. But they cannot cope with not being taken seriously, being told they are deluded.  

And record it all.

Thank you for your detailed and extremely useful response. Although awful to hear, other people’s experiences can be very useful.

Reporting them to the police for harassment just a couple of days ago has certainly helped. Both the police and the council are now communicating with each other and have the full history. Of course their noise nuisance investigation still has to go ahead, but we’re ok with that now that they are aware of all of his awful behaviour that dates back years. The statements from a previous occupant and 3 other households on the street have really helped also. Some of the examples of his behaviour in our neighbours statements were truly eye opening. The police were surprised why they hadn’t had more reports in the past, but I think the average family on the street wants to avoid that at all costs, just like we did. People are scared of confrontation, reluctant to create further animosity and of complications involved with declarations on house purchase paperwork. However, I believe this sort of behaviour will always catch up with you in the end!

I think your neighbour has been quite smart in reporting you to both the police and the council. He seems to know exactly what he's doing as it muddies the waters when the police go to the CPS for a charging decisions as it will be hard to determine there is a clear victim and offender to this dispute.