Right to Buy

danny_cc

AdrianC said:

danny_cc said:

I can assure you (whether you believe me or not) that this is not something that I am trying to force on her, simply a discussion that I want to have

You aren't trying to force it on her... but you're simply refusing to accept the clear answer she's already given you.

And how can we possibly know what you could say to her to change her mind? We've never met her...

yes, as a result of the RTB, there would be a financial benefit to me

No, there would not. Perhaps there might be when your mother eventually dies, perhaps not. But not until then. Until then, it would just be her buying a property she doesn't want to buy, and losing a secure tenancy.

I would never, during my mother’s lifetime, claim that the house was mine even if I was named on the mortgage and the deeds

If you're "on the deeds", then it simply is yours. You are a part-owner.
(We'll ignore for know that you can't be, because you have no RtB, she would have to be sole-owner).

If you got divorced, it would form part of the financial settlement.
If you went bankrupt, it would be an asset to repay your creditors.

I am very well aware that there is no way that strangers can know what to say but the reason I asked here is in the event that someone here had previously had a similar situation.

I mean, the financial benefit to me that I am talking is a reduction in my commitment to the rent/mortgage. And the RTB website states - “Family members may be eligible to join in the Right to Buy with you. However, if they are not named on the tenancy agreement, they will need to have lived in the property for the past 12 months. There is nothing in law that specifies how a Right to Buy purchase should be financed. A family member (or someone else) could provide the funding for the purchase. However legal ownership of the property can only be in the names of the eligible tenant/s and other eligible applicants. We recommend that you get financial and legal advice on joint Right to Buy applications.”. I read that to mean that if I have lived in the property for more than 12 months (which I have), then that would make me an eligible applicant. 

Again, I will repeat that my only need to be on the mortgage would be a) for the reduced rate and b) for reassurance that it wasn’t just a sole debt. If hypothetically she did decide to do it and didn’t want me on the mortgage, fine, that’s her decision, I have no interest in the personal ownership of the property at all, I am in agreement that it would be easier for me to not be on it for the reasons that you state and also for when I am in a position to move out and purchase a place of my own which is and always will be the plan, this would enable me to be in that position sooner (again, I feel I have to stress that that is not a motive for looking into this, it is a consequence of doing it), and by doing this, it would mean that when me and the other person contributing to the monthly cost of the living here leave, that the monthly payment would be more manageable for my mother alone, which it currently is unlikely to be, or would most likely be a struggle....I imagine those of you here would say that if I were to move out resulting in her not being able to make the rent payments, that I would be forcing her out of her home against her will also...just an observation.

danny_cc

NinjaTune said:

Write down the pros and cons and give them to her to read when/if she feels she wants to.

Clearly she has no wish to discuss it face to face or she would have done so by now.

Perhaps the way you come across in conversations about it with your Mum is the same way you seem to have come across in this thread?

Write it down.  Let her read it at her leisure.  If she still says no afterwards then at least you can be reassured she is making an informed choice.

Thank you, that is actually a sensible suggestion. 

I am aware that I do come across as quite forceful sometimes and that is clearly how I’m coming across here, and I do get frustrated when people don’t see things the way that I do, it is something that I am working on and I am entirely bought into the possibility that that flaw may be a major contributing factor here so your idea really does certainly alleviate that problem.

gingercordial said:

No further presentation of the "pros and cos" required by you, and I suspect you would be strong on the pros and less on the cons...

I do actually resent that statement, because I am personally in favour of one result, I am not so arrogant or blinkered to believe that it doesn’t have downsides or that there are no positives to the other result. Hence the additional request for anything that I may have missed in the way of pros and cons, and there has been quite a few things suggested that I had not taken into account that absolutely need to be taken into consideration. Don’t be so judgemental!

HampshireH

Well done mum. So often we see these posts where parents are railroaded or presumed they don't have all the facts when in reality they are quite capable of asking their own questions and making their own decisions. Fully aware of the facts.

The major con here would be a 30-50k debt in your mum's name plus the default response that something like a boiler can just go on finance.

Your mum sounds very sensible. She has a home for life with cheap rent, presumably no debt & someone else paying for all repairs and maintenance, including major upgrades of components. She can also move anytime should she need to. Pretty nice place to be.

danny_cc

HampshireH said:

Well done mum. So often we see these posts where parents are railroaded or presumed they don't have all the facts when in reality they are quite capable of asking their own questions and making their own decisions. Fully aware of the facts.

The major con here would be a 30-50k debt in your mum's name plus the default response that something like a boiler can just go on finance.

Your mum sounds very sensible. She has a home for life with cheap rent, presumably no debt & someone else paying for all repairs and maintenance, including major upgrades of components. She can also move anytime should she need to. Pretty nice place to be.

Thanks for not attacking me personally or my motives. 

I see opposite side of that con in that an indefinite rental payment is, in itself and debt of sorts. It’s a payment that you have to make monthly or you risk losing your home, the only material difference between mortgage and rental payments are than a mortgage has an end date and something to show for it at the end, a rental can continue ‘forever’ in theory, my mother could decide to move out next year and only pay an extra £4,800 from today in which case doing the RTB now would make her financially worse off, or she could never move out, live to be 81 (current average death age) and pay another £148,800, not accounting for any increases, in the next 30 years, in which case, a mortgage would’ve been cheaper by £94,356 not accounting for interest and taking the higher valuation estimate as purchase price. If she stayed here for the rest of her life, she could’ve had the financial freedom to enjoy her retirement once the mortgage was paid and instead she would continue to scrimp and save to make the monthly payments with no one likely to be living with her at that stage to help out, a real worry that I have for the future, I don’t want my mother to have to work into her twilight years, way after retirement because she is still paying rent and never took out a private pension.

The throwaway comment of a boiler going on finance (providing it wasn’t saved for) is because, in the grand scheme of things, £1,000-2,000 is kind of a drop in the ocean really, let’s be honest over a 15(ish) year lifespan of a boiler, you’re talking a value of £2.50p/w and that price could be covered using gross savings from the rental payments in the space of a year.

The thing is, she’s not sensible with money, she would be the first to admit it (which is another of the reasons I think she doesn’t want to enquire about the likes of a mortgage), I think she has already ‘written herself off’ because of her credit history and it may be the case after all anyway. The savings would be able to give her the ability to gradually, potentially pay off some of her outstanding debts, whatever they may be. As I have said on numerous occasions (I’m not saying that you are accusing me of anything by the way, yours has probably been the most sensible argument), I am trying to bring this to her attention, not to ‘railroad’ her into anything but to try my best to make her financially stable for the rest of her life, something she has never really had, stability. At this stage I am not even asking her to agree to do It, all I am asking of her is to allow me to put the request in to get a price to see what is possible, no obligations whatsoever, for all I know, the application could be rejected, the price might be hugely more than the rough online guides that I have looked at and not worth it, both of us (if I did apply with her) might be rejected for a mortgage and then that is that anyway, I know this may be hard to believe judging by previous posts but I may not want to do it (again, if she wanted me to be involved) when I know more around pricing etc., there might be something structurally wrong with the house for all I know....it’s the not knowing and the refusal to find out that is frustrating and, I believe, quite a defeatist attitude but that is my personal opinion and she may have looked into it without telling me and may have perfectly reasonable reasons for not wanting to look into it which, as someone previously pointed out, I have no automatic right to know anyway.

HampshireH

danny_cc said:

HampshireH said:

Well done mum. So often we see these posts where parents are railroaded or presumed they don't have all the facts when in reality they are quite capable of asking their own questions and making their own decisions. Fully aware of the facts.

The major con here would be a 30-50k debt in your mum's name plus the default response that something like a boiler can just go on finance.

Your mum sounds very sensible. She has a home for life with cheap rent, presumably no debt & someone else paying for all repairs and maintenance, including major upgrades of components. She can also move anytime should she need to. Pretty nice place to be.

Thanks for not attacking me personally or my motives. 

I see opposite side of that con in that an indefinite rental payment is, in itself and debt of sorts. It’s a payment that you have to make monthly or you risk losing your home, the only material difference between mortgage and rental payments are than a mortgage has an end date and something to show for it at the end, a rental can continue ‘forever’ in theory, my mother could decide to move out next year and only pay an extra £4,800 from today in which case doing the RTB now would make her financially worse off, or she could never move out, live to be 81 (current average death age) and pay another £148,800, not accounting for any increases, in the next 30 years, in which case, a mortgage would’ve been cheaper by £94,356 not accounting for interest and taking the higher valuation estimate as purchase price. If she stayed here for the rest of her life, she could’ve had the financial freedom to enjoy her retirement once the mortgage was paid and instead she would continue to scrimp and save to make the monthly payments with no one likely to be living with her at that stage to help out, a real worry that I have for the future, I don’t want my mother to have to work into her twilight years, way after retirement because she is still paying rent and never took out a private pension.

The throwaway comment of a boiler going on finance (providing it wasn’t saved for) is because, in the grand scheme of things, £1,000-2,000 is kind of a drop in the ocean really, let’s be honest over a 15(ish) year lifespan of a boiler, you’re talking a value of £2.50p/w and that price could be covered using gross savings from the rental payments in the space of a year.

The thing is, she’s not sensible with money, she would be the first to admit it (which is another of the reasons I think she doesn’t want to enquire about the likes of a mortgage), I think she has already ‘written herself off’ because of her credit history and it may be the case after all anyway. The savings would be able to give her the ability to gradually, potentially pay off some of her outstanding debts, whatever they may be. As I have said on numerous occasions (I’m not saying that you are accusing me of anything by the way, yours has probably been the most sensible argument), I am trying to bring this to her attention, not to ‘railroad’ her into anything but to try my best to make her financially stable for the rest of her life, something she has never really had, stability. At this stage I am not even asking her to agree to do It, all I am asking of her is to allow me to put the request in to get a price to see what is possible, no obligations whatsoever, for all I know, the application could be rejected, the price might be hugely more than the rough online guides that I have looked at and not worth it, both of us (if I did apply with her) might be rejected for a mortgage and then that is that anyway, I know this may be hard to believe judging by previous posts but I may not want to do it (again, if she wanted me to be involved) when I know more around pricing etc., there might be something structurally wrong with the house for all I know....it’s the not knowing and the refusal to find out that is frustrating and, I believe, quite a defeatist attitude but that is my personal opinion and she may have looked into it without telling me and may have perfectly reasonable reasons for not wanting to look into it which, as someone previously pointed out, I have no automatic right to know anyway.

Just be careful you don't push her too far or you may find yourself looking for your own rental.

Don't forget it is her house you live in and if she chose to she could end that arrangement if she feels undermined or pressured into doing something she doesn't want to do. 

danny_cc

HampshireH said:

Just be careful you don't push her too far or you may find yourself looking for your own rental.

Don't forget it is her house you live in and if she chose to she could end that arrangement if she feels undermined or pressured into doing something she doesn't want to do. 

I couldn’t agree more, it’s a very sensitive subject to approach, hence my reason for asking for any sort of assistance here, not that I’ve received much in the way of assistance, more attacks that helpful comments, I’m sure I part to blame for not initially explaining myself well enough. Not sure I fully deserved to be painted as some sort of monster that was trying to pull the foundations from beneath his family for personal gain but I suppose that’ll teach me to go to the internet for sensible advice and help   

Thank you for being neutral and not jumping to the same conclusions as most others did, it’s very welcoming and reassuring that I’ve finally got a kind reply to my first (and no doubt last) post here 

macman

So all the other replies were 'unkind' then?
Or simply giving you an answer that you didn't want to hear?

AdrianC

danny_cc said:

Thank you for being neutral and not jumping to the same conclusions as most others did, it’s very welcoming and reassuring that I’ve finally got a kind reply to my first (and no doubt last) post here 

We see a lot of people post here who think they've got some kind of right to buy their parents' council house, to make a few quid. They rarely take account of anything other than seeing the discount as a money-maker, and they usually refer to it as their inheritance.

You can, I'm sure, see why your post may be perceived as yet another one of those.

Perhaps it's different. We don't know. All we know is what you've posted - and that looks from here to be an attempt to bully her into something she doesn't want to do. Whether it's in her best interests is nowhere near as clear-cut as you think...

And we've only focussed on your mother's angle, not the fact you'll be losing your FTB benefits and setting yourself up for +3% SDLT when you later buy your own home.

[Deleted User]

Say your mum has a change of heart about RTB. Why would she need to make a joint application with you instead of just flying solo? 

[Deleted User]

danny_cc said:

HampshireH said:

Well done mum. So often we see these posts where parents are railroaded or presumed they don't have all the facts when in reality they are quite capable of asking their own questions and making their own decisions. Fully aware of the facts.

The major con here would be a 30-50k debt in your mum's name plus the default response that something like a boiler can just go on finance.

Your mum sounds very sensible. She has a home for life with cheap rent, presumably no debt & someone else paying for all repairs and maintenance, including major upgrades of components. She can also move anytime should she need to. Pretty nice place to be.

The thing is, she’s not sensible with money, she would be the first to admit it (which is another of the reasons I think she doesn’t want to enquire about the likes of a mortgage), I think she has already ‘written herself off’ because of her credit history and it may be the case after all anyway. The savings would be able to give her the ability to gradually, potentially pay off some of her outstanding debts, whatever they may be. 

If this were the main reason you wanted to do this then you would have started with that. Your original post was all about how it would save YOU money, helping YOU to eventually buy a second property and eventually provide YOU with some form of inheritance. 

Lets not beat around the bush about this. Everything about this is money driven. You want your mother to buy her council house so that it will benefit you financially. Your mother is just an afterthought. 

All this aside, I am interested to know why you think that the national council housing stock, of which the purpose is meant to provide those in need and on low incomes (people like your mother) with a roof over their heads and is already at an all time low, is there to - as per your own words - "provide you with an inheritance".?