Tariff/supplier switch but keep timer/times

danrv

Gerry1 said:

Unless you change to a different heating system, the only answer is NSHs that are big enough and are on E7, perhaps with limited bedroom use of panel heaters or fan heaters.  

Thanks for the help.
Non storage heater options would be ASHP wet system or air con.
There is the RHI with a radiator system but I don’t want to be spending all that and it’s a large job.
That would be from the ground up.

There’s no problem with sizing the storage heaters if on E7. I suppose to fully replace the efficiency of the warm air heater, they would be fitted in all rooms. Seems to be more cons than pros with that though, depending on use.
Heat downstairs will heat upstairs a little also.
Everything held up somewhat too with lockdown and visiting tradesmen. I can fit the heaters but need the correct E7 sockets/wiring installed.

Phones4Chris

I may reply in more than one post as I keep getting interrupted and there's several things to cover.
I've taken a bit more time to look at this rather than the rush I was in yesterday, and I've also had a quick read through your previous thread on electric heaters, so I've got a better idea of the situation.

When/what time was that second photo of the time-switch taken?
Iif it was just before you posted it, I'm baffled about why you think you are getting those E10 (91/2) hrs at the times you mentioned in your other thread - approx. 5.10am to 3.10pm. as the time-switch is at about an hour after the off-peak hours turned off. The time-switch does/is supposed to have a spring reserve but it's either broken or ran out a long time ago - you must have had a lot of power cuts!
How long have you been with E.On with this E10 tariff?
There was some talk in the other thread about a supplier giving you an E7 tariff but not changing those E10 hours, did you pursue that question with E.On? To be quite frank, there may have been examples in the past, but I think this is pie in the sky, a supplier giving you 3 hours at night rate when they should be at day rate, very unlikely to happen. In any event to keep 10 hours, you either have to be certain of keeping that time-switch or buying your own - not especially cheap. You've still got to do the costings to see if any available E7 tariff would be cost effective with 10hrs charge.

But that brings us to the next query. I was wondering yesterday if this hot air system would work ok with a 7 hour charge rather than 10 if getting costs down worked best on an E7 tariff with no daytime consumption. In the other thread you mentioned it has a 73Kw capacity with a 10kW input. Simple maths tells me that 7x10kW =70kW only 3 kW short, so you'd think maybe, but, it probably doesn't have good enough insulation so I would have expected it to have needed some daytime boost NOT 10hrs continuous where it would be (on paper) getting 100kW max of input and getting far too hot!! However you also mentioned the input control was only up to 1/4 in another thread otherwise it got very hot, so in practical terms it may not be getting more than 70kW, so if it works well enough at present then E7 may do but consider the cost of any supplemental heating use in the daytime at daytime rates.

Phones4Chris

I'm not sure if this has been made crystal clear, but you've mentioned a few times that your off peak hours were approx. 5.10am to 3.10pm. BUT if so, that's ONLY BECAUSE your time-switch is not at the correct GMT time, you've had power cuts and the spring reserve has failed (or it's been set wrong!). If you changed to E7, that would almost certainly be corrected to off-peak hours approx.midnight to 7.00am (precise timings are region dependent).
I'm not sure it's still 5.10am to 3.10pm but that depends on when that 2nd photo was taken, as the time-switch was showing the time at nearly 8.00am when you posted just before 2300. The off-peak time settings are currently shown as approx 9.15pm to 6.45am.
(As an aside you couldn't use that particular time-switch for two off-peak periods - ie.a main + a boost, as it only appears to have one set of levers - and in any case that's assuming you could persuade them to let you keep it - it is the suppliers "property" but would go for scrap if it was made "redundant").
Having queried the times you are getting in reality, I though that it was worth checking that you are reading the correct registers on the meter for off-peak usage and peak usage. There's many examples of people getting them the wrong way round (another reason why I asked how long you'd been with E.On). To check, when the time-switch is definitely showing it's between 9.15pm and 6.45 am, check which register on the meter is incrementing.

danrv said:

Phones4Chris said:

There's going to be at least 3 consumer units going by the cables exiting the meter box. Can we have some pictures but particularly identifying the one(s) for the heating and some detail about how the heating is actually controlled.

.................
The timer switches over the meter for whole house off peak/peak rates.
......................

Yes, that's what the auxiliary contacts on the time-switch are for.
Out of curiosity can you tell us what rating the fuses are in the two wylex consumer units, the white one on the left and brown one on the right?

danrv

Thank very much for taking the time to look into this.
The white fuse box is 15a and brown one is 60a. I’ve only ever used the white one as this turns off the charge to the heater. 
Maybe the brown one is another switch for all power. There’s also further isolation switches at the unit that the electrician thought were not really necessary.
The 2nd pic was taken on 5th Nov 2020.

Still confused by the off peak times. Eon said they’re 10.00pm-8.00am. The heater is charging now on low rate and does up until mid afternoon. I checked this throughly a while ago and at the time, the change over from low to normal rate was approx. 3.10pm.
I’ve had power cuts so this may have drifted since.
The heater stops taking a charge until low rate starts again.

I’m sure there’s no charging on normal rate as the electrician said that the timer tells the meter and the heater what to do.
The Unidare does have a day energy switch but have never used this. 
I will also contact Eon regarding an E7 plan.

Phones4Chris

danrv said:

................I will also contact Eon regarding an E7 plan.

I would do your sums thoroughly first.

danrv said:

...............I’ve had power cuts so this may have drifted since.
The heater stops taking a charge until low rate starts again.

I’m sure there’s no charging on normal rate as the electrician said that the timer tells the meter and the heater what to do.
The Unidare does have a day energy switch but have never used this.

That's exactly what the time switch is for and it always charges at whatever the off-peak time-slot is. If it has drifted it's always possible your other usage might mean you are paying more than you need if you're using things outside the off-peak times you thought you were getting. Remember those "current" times can be/are working to your advantage, but if they get changed by E.On (or whoever) that could be disadvantageous. This is why you should thoroughly do the sums first to see what tariff would work out best at present.

danrv said:

Still confused by the off peak times. Eon said they’re 10.00pm-8.00am.

Those will be the normal settings for E10 in your region. E7 will fall somewhere in between (~ midnight to 7.00am).

danrv said:
The white fuse box is 15a and brown one is 60a. I’ve only ever used the white one as this turns off the charge to the heater. 
Maybe the brown one is another switch for all power. There’s also further isolation switches at the unit that the electrician thought were not really necessary.

I was expecting the brown one to be at least 45A (from its size), so that tallies. BUT the white one won't be supplying the heater element as that's 10kW far greater than a 15A fuse! It's more likely that apart from some auxiliary stuff at the unit on this, there is a contactor (relay) at the unit so that the heater isn't activated (from the brown fuse-box - live 24hrs) when this "white" supply is off - it's likely it's a safety "interlock" as well. This would also tie-in with the size of the tails (cables) leaving the meter cabinet from the sources they are (time-switch and 24hrs connector blocks).
There should always be isolation switches at the unit position, again for safety etc (see wiring regs) so I think in this case your electrician is wrong.

danrv said: Thank very much for taking the time to look into this.

No problem, it's quite a complex situation, so I hope my responses (and some of my questions which in part might have been for my own edification of your installation ) have helped you. As I've said, do those sums thoroughly first, using comparison sites as you've been advised, to see what tariffs and what costs might be available for you at present to reduce your costs until such time as you've decide what future heating system you may go for. The only note of caution is if you find a suitable tariff for now, make sure it's not one you can't readily change (or change supplier) if it wouldn't be ideal for your future choice of heating, so take account of any exit fees that might apply when making decisions.

danrv

Thanks, really helpful.
That does make sense about the switches/fuses. Seemed odd that the 15a one isolates the storage element. 

I think the electrician was saying that with the big switches only three meters from the unit, the extra ones didn’t seem necessary. At least they should be in with the heater anyway.
They’re in an adjacent cupboard and I had no idea they were to do with the heater. In fact the electrician originally came round as I’d inadvertently knocked one of the switches to the OFF position. 
I thought the heater had packed up and he was checking all the circuits. Just didn’t but 2 and 2 together. Had they have been in with the Unidare, he would have seen those straight away. Usual installation but there’s no doubt that it is sufficient for heating the property.

I’ll do the sums before committing to any change of supplier/tariff. Octopus have no exit fees but as Gerry1 says, I’ll need to look at the standing charges and other details on the comparison sites.

danrv

Gerry1 said:

danrv said:

Gerry1 said:

danrv said:

matelodave said:

You really do need to put a lot more effort in finding a better tariff. Potentially you might find that one of the lower priced (not big six) suppliers who are too idle to install smart meters (Symbio, Neon Reef etc) would just leave your metering alone (even if you went for E7) so it's worth having a trawl around and seeing what deals are out there. 

OVO and Bulb have the cheapest E7 tariffs.

What makes you think that?

Checked on either USwitch or Citizen’s Advice. 
Bulb E7  8.937p low, 18.015p normal 
OVO E7  9.072p low, 17.640p normal
Symbio  13p low and normal 

They were top of the list.

Did you click on the well hidden Uswitch icon to see the wider market?  Did you input your annual kWh usage (from actual meter readings) into both sites?  It's the total annual costs that you should be comparing, not the kWh rates which are mostly only of academic interest..  (You've also not mentioned the daily charges.)

I’ve worked out annual usage from the Eon website as I haven’t got my own readings over a year.
I state that I have a Economy 7 meter on USwitch but the kWh usage they require is seperated into day and night. 
I only have a single figure of 10,289 kWh for 2019.

Regarding the wider market icon, all I can see is a filter tool to limit the search to USwitch assisted switches only or contact supplier directly options.
It’s all laid out well with a DD amount you’ll pay, what you’ll save etc. No early exit fees on Bulb and some others. Just need to check for standing charges but I know that Eon’s is around 29p.
There’s a ‘switch today’ link but not sure what process follows. 

With my current system, I know that it’s mostly off peak use this time of year - about 90/10 split.
The rest of the year, most usage will be heating water for an hour each day and occasional washing machine, dishwasher, shower usage. 
I guess contacting the new supplier would be an idea as my heating is not actually E7.

I’m just about done with all this and need to sort something quickly. Surely an E7 rate with much lower prices and a DD plan will be better? 
Then see how it goes when I update heating.

Gerry1

On Uswitch you click on Filter and then the button to show suppliers that you have to contact directly.  Note that you have to do that after each change you make, it will keep defaulting back to the narrow (expensive) view.

If you're using your convectors then single rate is likely to be better.  If you're using your warm air storage system then E7 is likely to be better, ditto if you get NSHs.  Make sure the immersion heater is only using off-peak.

As you don't know the day/night split because of your wonky timeswitch then you could start by assuming the national average of 42% night usage for E7.

danrv

Gerry1 said:

If you're using your convectors then single rate is likely to be better.  If you're using your warm air storage system then E7 is likely to be better, ditto if you get NSHs.  

Thanks for the reply. 
It’ll be the warm air heater for a while then hopefully NSH’s together with convectors.

Gerry1

danrv said:

Gerry1 said:

If you're using your convectors then single rate is likely to be better.  If you're using your warm air storage system then E7 is likely to be better, ditto if you get NSHs.  

It’ll be the warm air heater for a while then hopefully NSH’s together with convectors.

That won't end well, unless it's strictly limited use of convectors in the bedrooms, preferably during off peak hours.  Using convectors regularly during the day when you have NSHs would be madness because they'd be using daytime E7 electricity, which is even more expensive than the single rate.

The important thing is to make sure that your NSHs are not under dimensioned, and then there will be no need to top up in the afternoon or evening.  If in doubt, go for the larger size.