£100 fine for 10 mins in EURO CAR PARKS whose pay-meters did not recognise registration plate number

Maz_77

Hi all,

I have drafted the appeal letter to POPLA below.  Please can you provide any feedback for improvements or suggestions to remove wording that might work against my appeal?  Many thanks in advance.

============================================================

** **** **
**********
*** ***
5th February 2021
POPLA
"Website address for POPLA . Co. UK "

Unique POPLA Verification Code: **********
Euro Car Parks Ref: **********

Dear Sir or Madam,

Ticket number: **********
Vehicle registration number: **** ***

I was issued with a parking ticket on **/**/2020 but I believe it was unfairly  issued. I will not be paying the demand for payment for the reasons below.

There was insufficient signage
The car park in question after 6PM on the December evening of the event was very, very dark,there are no lamposts in that large carpark whatsoever and therefore there was no clear signage that I could see showing a phone number to call to pay by phone following many attempts to pay at the two pay-meters due to technical issues with those devices.  Before looking for a phone number to pay through, I first followed the instructions on the the pay meters but both of the meters did not register my car registration number plate when I typed it in and I could not use my bank card to pay.  I pressed the green button but no ticket was produced so I could not get a ticket to display.  I repeated the process listed on the pay-meters several times, on both pay-meter devices for about 10 minutes. I then looked for a phone number to call but I could not see one anywhere in the carpark on that evening as it was extremely dark in the car park.  Again, there are no lamposts in the parking bays which in this day & age is a ridiculous situation from a health & safety persective, especially when there are many, large pot-holes & uneven bumps on the ground in the carpark.  I took photos a few weeks later during daylight hours that show that there are no lamposts at all inside this carpark.  I do not believe that there was a phone number displayed in that car park on that evening. It was in fact so dark that I could barely see where I was walking & actually tripped in a pot-hole hurting my ankle.  The carpark was full of large pot-holes & bumps.. I counted about 10 uneven surfaces when I returned a few week later, which I also took photos of.  Please see the attached photographic evidence.

Both pay-meters did not recognise my car registration plate when I entered it into those devices.  However, I still proceeded to try to pay with my bank card in both pay meter devices after typing in my car registration plate number but no payments could be made.  It is possible the bank card I used had sanitiser on it as I have been using that regularly to clean my hands due to the Covid-19 virus.  I believe that this sanitiser issue has been a common problem this past year with chip & pin devices etc during the Corona virus pandemic crisis.  Alternatively, and more likely, I believe there was a technology problem with both pay meters as this is the first time this problem has ever happened to me in over three decades of driving & parking in carparks.  

It is worth pointing out that this is a first offence on that piece of land and all other carparks that I have used.  I am a law abiding citizen.  I did eveything in my power to buy a ticket but could not do so due to defective pay-meter equipment and insufficient signage.  I left the carpark immediately after several failed attempts to but a ticket and did not leave the carpark for any other reason during the very short time my car was parked in it.

It is also worth pointing out that the charge is disproportionate and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss.  The amount charged is not based upon any genuine pre-estimate of loss to the company or the landowner. In my case, the £100 charge being asked for far exceeds the cost to the landowner of the £3 as I only stayed in the carpark for 12 minutes total, all of which was spent trying to buy a ticket and therefore feel the amount asked for is excessive. I should also add that the carpark was half empty so I was not preventing Euro Car Parks earning more money through lack of parking spaces for other cars.

I am very frustrated with the contract.  After seeking legal advice on this matter, please note the points below WRT this Parking Charge Notice:

i.    No standing to issue the charge
ii.    BPA CoP failures
iii.    There is no contract (No offer to motorists where the system fails to recognise a VRM)
iv.    ANPR failure
v.    Not the landowner

This parking charge notice is causing me enormous anguish & stress at a time when I am already suffering from health issues due to the third lockdown of the Covid-19 pandemic.  My sister is an NHS care worker who I was out attempting to do shopping for on the evening of the parking charge notice.  I am also due some significant repair & decorating bills at the moment due to the recent rain storms and this excessive parking charge fine for a 10 minute park up is causing me to lose sleep. 

Yours faithfully,
***** *****
***** *****
=========

Maz_77

Submission letter for POPLA pasted for feedback comments! 

KeithP

You have mentioned thes five points:

i.    No standing to issue the charge
ii.    BPA CoP failures
iii.    There is no contract (No offer to motorists where the system fails to recognise a VRM)
iv.    ANPR failure
v.    Not the landowner

...but each of those points need to be expanded into several paragraphs each so that the PoPLA assessor is in no doubt whatsoever about the point you are making.


Have you read any of the guidance in the NEWBIES thread on how to construct a winning PoPLA appeal?

Have you seen any of the lengthy fully illustrated examples of a PoPLA appeal found there?

Like this one for instance...
www.dropbox.com/s/p7ltb9rcr6zy7kn/Appeal_stage2_POPLA_ECP_draft5.pdf?dl=0

Fruitcake

I don't think you understand the meaning of, "Frustration of contract." Whilst you may be frustrated, it is a legal term meaning that the contract has been frustrated, not you.
In your case it means, the motorist was frustrated (prevented from doing something) in their attempt to enter their full and correct VRM, therefore was frustrated (prevented) from complying with the parking contract displayed on the signs.
The contract was also void for impossibility. It was impossible for the motorist to enter their VRM because the faulty ANPR/Pay Machine failed to recognise a valid VRM.

Umkomaas

It is also worth pointing out that the charge is disproportionate and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss.  The amount charged is not based upon any genuine pre-estimate of loss to the company or the landowner. In my case, the £100 charge being asked for far exceeds the cost to the landowner of the £3 as I only stayed in the carpark for 12 minutes total, all of which was spent trying to buy a ticket and therefore feel the amount asked for is excessive. I should also add that the carpark was half empty so I was not preventing Euro Car Parks earning more money through lack of parking spaces for other cars.

Where on earth have you got that from?  Almost 6 years ago this was dismissed as an argument in private parking by the highest court in the land - The Supreme Court - in ParkingEye v Beavis. 

You are telling too much of a story in your appeal. This isn't about mitigating circumstances (other than just a short 'scene setter') and it's nothing about being a 'law abiding citizen'. It is about technical points and contractual law and how these back up your position.   Sorry, but POPLA will have no interest in your sister, your decorating bills, not even your mental health.  They are dealing only with the law of contract. 

Which sections of the ready-written POPLA appeal template points from the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, third post, have you used?  Check it out. 

When is the deadline date for your POPLA submission?

HouseTargaryen

You write a lot, but 99% of what you say has no bearing on the fact you left your car on their car park knowing you didn't pay. You should have just drove out and found somewhere else to park. If I walk in to Tesco and their self service machine isn't working, checkouts are closed and no staff in sight, do I take my sandwich and walk out their shop? No. And if I did, not only would I have to pay for it, I may get a criminal record. Just be lucky you don't have a criminal record for your act and pay up. 

Umkomaas

Just be lucky you don't have a criminal record for your act and pay up.

I think unless someone understands this subject area they should refrain from making this kind of wholly misinformed comment. By all means read plenty on here to get a better knowledge, but hold back on the 'advice'.

Criminal record? 🤦‍♂️

Perhaps a little reminder at this stage of what you said on a thread in the motoring section just a couple of days ago :

Someone asks for help. People too concerned with telling OP it is there own fault. Wow. Welcome to MoneySavingExpert forum where we prefer to lambast people than help. I can just imagine you all volunteering in foodbanks. You'd be going through their bank statments: "Oooo another fish and chips. And Coop again...is that for alcohol? No food for you, it's your own fault!". As the mandalorian says "this is the way". 

D_P_Dance

Just be lucky you don't have a criminal record for your act and pay up. 

It  is not a criminal matter, it is a civil matter, just as disputing a plumber's invoice would be.  Please ensure that you understand these matters before offering advice.  Everything you need to know about everything can be found by using a search engine.  

Fruitcake

HouseTargaryen said:

You write a lot, but 99% of what you say has no bearing on the fact you left your car on their car park knowing you didn't pay. You should have just drove out and found somewhere else to park. If I walk in to Tesco and their self service machine isn't working, checkouts are closed and no staff in sight, do I take my sandwich and walk out their shop? No. And if I did, not only would I have to pay for it, I may get a criminal record. Just be lucky you don't have a criminal record for your act and pay up. 

I suggest that first of all you learn the difference between criminal law and civil (contract) law.
Secondly, I suggest you read what the motorist actually did, not what you think they did, and learn about frustration of contract, and about the unregulated parking scam in general.

Maz_77

Thanks all (but one).  I did use the template I found on here for POPLA which did suggest filling in a section on "Mitigating circumstances [If appealing to a BPA member]" & suggested to "Enter any further reasons of your own to support your claim and include as much detail as you can."  I was not sure if BPA and POPLA are connected so I included mitigating circumstances and I included further reasons as suggested.  

Hi KeithP , thanks for the information.  I am not sure I found the correct Newbies page but I did get the POPLA template off the MSE website that I sued to write the draft letter I posted. And I have yet to find the Newbies Sticky link that has been mentioned in this thread [If you could send a link(s) to this it would be much appreciated?].  Is it neccessary to write several paragraphs from scratch on each bullet points?  I am not a legal person so cannot describe things in legal terms.  Even if I could, the letter example you sent a link (www.dropbox.com/s/p7ltb9rcr6zy7kn/Appeal_stage2_POPLA_ECP_draft5.pdf?dl=0) to is almost 30 pages in length & I do not have that level of evidence. All of that could take weeks to compile write up & I have already spent a very long time looking into this matter.  I am thinking that perhaps using a private appeals company to deal with this would be the best way to go (despite advice not to) .. what do you think?

Hi Umkomaas, I get your points about the my including too much of a story - I will reduce that down in the next draft.  The POPLA template on MSE includes a bullet point for "[If appealing to a BPA member] Mitigating circumstances."  I got the statement "the charge is disproportionate and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss" from a list of mitigating circumstances on the MSE website that also includes the statements "It is a first offence on that piece of land" and "a law abiding citizen..".  Are you saying it would be counterproductive to leave these statements in or do you just think they just unneccessary?

Hi Fruitcake, I am not a legal person obviously so I didn't understand the term "Frustration of contract" and don't understand some of the other legal terms so I am guilty as charged on that .  Previously you suggested my appeal should include the following:

⦁    Not the landowner
⦁    No standing to issue charge
⦁    Frustration of contract
⦁    BPA CoP failures
⦁    No contract (No offer to motorists where the system fails to recognise a VRM)
⦁    ANPR failure

.. I can & will include words to the effect of what you describe re "It was impossible for the motorist to enter their VRM because the faulty ANPR/Pay Machine failed to recognise a valid VRM."  However, in my initial appeal to Euro Car Parks where I mentioned that issue (using my own words), but in a nutshell their arguement was that I should have paid by phone instead. I did not see a phone number at that time despite actively looking around the carpark for it, but this is my word against theirs. So they mean deem the point about the VRM as irrelevant?
Are all of the above relevant to my case do you think? Also, how many words & paragrphs per bullet point do you think should be included in the appeal, as much as 29 pages (inluding photos etc) as in this example posted by Keith above ..  www.dropbox.com/s/p7ltb9rcr6zy7kn/Appeal_stage2_POPLA_ECP_draft5.pdf?dl=0) ?  Lastly, is there any standard information on each point that I could paste into my letter & if so, where might I find this please?  

Thanks for reading.