Can’t find a deed of variation

xylophone

 HMRC say they need to see the DOV and could it have been sent to them? 

https://www.gov.uk/alter-a-will-after-a-death

If the variation means there’s more Inheritance Tax to pay, you must send a copy to HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) within 6 months of making it.

You don’t need to send a copy to HMRC if the variation doesn’t change the amount of Inheritance Tax due.

Was a Grant of Probate obtained for your mother's estate?

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/find-a-will-or-probate-document-form-pa1s

As your mother's will originally left you and your siblings anything up to   her nil rate band between you, it follows that she had / thought she was likely to have assets in her sole name that she could bequeath.

Are you able to obtain any records of your father's bank accounts/share accounts etc  to show any transfer of monies or assets to him at around the time of your mother's death?

naedanger

You could speak to your solicitor and see if they can suggest a specialist. My thoughts are it is a tax advisor who specialises in inheritance tax who you need, and I expect they are expensive. 

Who is the executor of your late father's estate. Before involving a more specialist (and likely more expensive) solicitor or tax advisor, I would have thought it reasonable for the executor of your late father estate to ask HMRC for a copy of the IHT returns of your late mother's estate to help establish how much of her estate was covered by the spouse's exemption. (So that your father's executor can then calculate the nil rate band.)

getmore4less

Fathers executor should create executor chain to be able to deal the previously deceased.

Still need to work out if there is any transferable nil rate band

How big is this estate and any house involved  that would potentially give £675k before any IHT.

Tinamw

Hello. Me again. 

Firstly I’d like to thank you for the responses, advice and for taking the time to do so.

To answer some questions:-
The DoV has not turned up. I’ve approached a couple of unlikely contacts to see if anything turns up but I’m not optimistic. The 3 of us are now convinced we never signed anything, nor were asked to. All of us have been totally ignorant of the contents of mother’s will and this has come as a shock.
Rifling through dad’s correspondence we have found a PO a/c and a bank account in mother’s name (fairly significant amounts) and transferred to my fathers bank account in May 2009 as her executor.
I should be able to obtain records of my fathers bank accounts etc to show the transfer of monies and assets to him around the time of mother’s death.
I’ve asked my sister, who’s dealing with our solicitor, to request from HMRC a copy of any IHT returns from moms estate to establish SE.
Our solicitor suggests re the DoV that we claim it and send in the information we do have in the hope they will be lenient. Her opinion is that it is a futile exercise as without it, there is no evidence that the will was varied in accordance with the law as a DoV needs to be signed, witnessed and dated by all relevant parties. Without that evidence it cannot be proved the will was varied for IHT purposes and therefore the transfer of the NRB will in all likelihood be rejected. Sols 2 in the chain have stated they only received the wills and title deeds so cannot pursue that avenue of investigation. To err on the side of caution her advice is to submit our claim regardless, but make a payment on account of the calculated IHT to prevent penalties and interest whilst the claim is considered. The full history of investigations and the problems encountered by the takeover of Sols 2 and potentially missing documents can be given to HMRC.

Without the transfer of moms NRB IHT has been calculated to be £150k+. It stings. And so unnecessary.

Sorry this is so long.

Tinamw

xylophone

Our current solicitor has found a letter from Sol1 (I presume) notifying a letter or DoV was sent to my father and asking him to get us to sign.

You do have  this evidence at least that there was an intention to vary your mother's will.

You will need to establish the exact details of your mother's  assets at death and then establish that they were transferred to your father's own account (s) or an executor's account.

You will then need to track the monies through your father's accounts.

This may help establish that he kept the money/saved/invested it and never made any transfers of money to his children that would have been in accordance with his late wife's will. 

You may need to go down the route of establishing what accounts you and your siblings have had since your mother's death to attempt to show that your father did not transfer any funds to you.

You might need to make a formal claim to be creditors of your father's estate in respect of the unpaid bequests.

naedanger

Tinamw said:

Hello. Me again. 

Firstly I’d like to thank you for the responses, advice and for taking the time to do so.

To answer some questions:-
The DoV has not turned up. I’ve approached a couple of unlikely contacts to see if anything turns up but I’m not optimistic. The 3 of us are now convinced we never signed anything, nor were asked to. All of us have been totally ignorant of the contents of mother’s will and this has come as a shock.
Rifling through dad’s correspondence we have found a PO a/c and a bank account in mother’s name (fairly significant amounts) and transferred to my fathers bank account in May 2009 as her executor.
I should be able to obtain records of my fathers bank accounts etc to show the transfer of monies and assets to him around the time of mother’s death.
I’ve asked my sister, who’s dealing with our solicitor, to request from HMRC a copy of any IHT returns from moms estate to establish SE.
Our solicitor suggests re the DoV that we claim it and send in the information we do have in the hope they will be lenient. Her opinion is that it is a futile exercise as without it, there is no evidence that the will was varied in accordance with the law as a DoV needs to be signed, witnessed and dated by all relevant parties. Without that evidence it cannot be proved the will was varied for IHT purposes and therefore the transfer of the NRB will in all likelihood be rejected. Sols 2 in the chain have stated they only received the wills and title deeds so cannot pursue that avenue of investigation. To err on the side of caution her advice is to submit our claim regardless, but make a payment on account of the calculated IHT to prevent penalties and interest whilst the claim is considered. The full history of investigations and the problems encountered by the takeover of Sols 2 and potentially missing documents can be given to HMRC.

Without the transfer of moms NRB IHT has been calculated to be £150k+. It stings. And so unnecessary.

Sorry this is so long.

Tinamw

I am very surprised by your solicitor's suggestion if I am understanding it correctly. You say you and everyone who would have needed to sign the dov are convinced that you never signed it and were never asked to do so. So what are you going to say to HMRC - please accept there was a dov that everyone concerned is convinced doesn't exist? (And even if you are all silent on the point HMRC are almost certainly bound to ask you all for a declaration at some point. In any event I expect they would only allow a missing dov in exceptional circumstances e.g. where it was lost by a solicitor or other party or a copy exists along with good evidence the original did exist at some point.)

I would have thought you would have had a slightly better chance of arguing you were all owed a debt by the estate in respect of the inheritance you should have received from your mother. However I suspect HMRC would require you to prove the three of you did not gift the money informally to your father. (However if all three of you were to swear this was not the case I think there is at least a possibility you might succeed in such a claim.)

Perhaps the best chance is HMRC somehow (and contrary to what you all now think) have a copy themselves that none of you remember.