Consent to discharge over non owned land

frogglet

We asked permission to run our sewage treatment plant outlet across a piece of land and the owner said no.
Despite there being other drains there from other sources.
They said they regretted giving previous permission as subsequent owners poured alsorts down the drainage pipe. 
We are having to do a much longer run to drain it to the ditch.
What dont you ask the owner yourself?

princeofpounds

eve824 said:

So the only issue that I think is an issue is the lack of formal permission to discharge over the field, which is owned by the 3rd party. Sounds like we either need an easement or potentially an indemnity policy incase anyone was ever to challenge our rights in this regard. Trouble is our solicitor doesn't feel its an issue and I hate to be one of those people who tries to tell her how to do her job.....but I want to protect my interests.

No, you're not getting it. The WHOLE of the original plot of land (the dominant tenement) has the easement over the third party who owns the field (the servient tenement), as long as:

a) the prescriptive easement is valid (it appears to be) and can be evidenced (statutory declaration).
b) the owner of the original plot does not refuse to grant that easement to the new plot they are carving out
c) the use of the new plot of land is not substantially different in character.

THAT is why the solicitor doesn't think it's an issue. Because it probably isn't. But do go and talk this through with your solicitor. Get them to write down their advice.

eve824

Thanks PoP. I DO get it. At the moment there is nothing, no easement, no statutory declaration, no written agreement, nothing. Which is why I am asking the question and why I think our solicitor may not be correct in her assessment (or, perhaps, did not elaborate as to why she felt it wasn't an issue beyond 'its been happening for 55 years so will probably be fine'). I plan to bring the subject up again with her once I've had a chance to research myself this weekend. Perhaps she knows something that hasn't been communicated to me that makes it 'fine'.

I have asked the owner, it was an enquiry we raised. They told us they have no 'written' permission but it has been that way for 55 years. 

princeofpounds

eve824 said:

Thanks PoP. I DO get it. At the moment there is nothing, no easement, no statutory declaration, no written agreement, nothing. 

Yes, no statutory declaration.

But there IS an easement - a prescriptive easement does not need to be written to exist. Google it - the whole point of prescriptive easements is a right acquired through unopposed long-term use without permission and without documentation. 

ProDave

Is the COVERED DITCH you will be discharging into on the plot or not?

If it is on the plot then you are a riparian landowner, just as you would be if the ditch were not covered and you can discharge into it as the permit allows.

IF however the ditch is NOT on your land but adjacent to it, then you will need permission from the landowner to lay a pipe on his land to pipe your outflow into the ditch.

greatcrested

frogglet said:

greatcrested said:

Whether or not you have the correct rights over 3rd party land, or consent to discharge, I suspect the key will be the quality of the discharge. Any discharge into a water course (which this appears to be) must now meet the w 2020 Envirommental standards, so you'll need a small sewage treatment plant. If that is part of your plan - fine. If not, research the rules.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/general-binding-rules-small-sewage-discharge-to-a-surface-water

Hes building a new house and installing a Klargester on a separate piece of land next to the current house which has its own system.

Klargester septic tank or Klargester treatment plant?

(not that I'd recommend either.... but that's another story!)

frogglet

greatcrested said:

frogglet said:

greatcrested said:

Whether or not you have the correct rights over 3rd party land, or consent to discharge, I suspect the key will be the quality of the discharge. Any discharge into a water course (which this appears to be) must now meet the w 2020 Envirommental standards, so you'll need a small sewage treatment plant. If that is part of your plan - fine. If not, research the rules.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/general-binding-rules-small-sewage-discharge-to-a-surface-water

Hes building a new house and installing a Klargester on a separate piece of land next to the current house which has its own system.

Klargester septic tank or Klargester treatment plant?

(not that I'd recommend either.... but that's another story!)

If you read his posts , its a Klargester Biodisc.

Personally, if there is a possibility someone may come along and remove that pipe you would be literally in !!!!!! creek.
I would want  some sort of evidence I was in the right to get it rectified quickly  especially if you have no other way of getting the water to the ditch.
Even if you had an indemnity insurance, it wouldn't solve the problem of where to drain the water or it might, several months down the line.

ProDave

Please don't fit a Biodisk.  That works on having moving mechanical parts down in the brown smelly stuff.  Trust me you do not want the job of repairing it WHEN it goes wrong.

Instead choose a treatment plant that works on an air blower to agitate the "stuff" such as Conder, Vortex, Graff, Bio Pure and several others.  Only an air blower pump to go wrong and that lives in the dry and is easy to replace.

eve824

ProDave said:

Is the COVERED DITCH you will be discharging into on the plot or not?

If it is on the plot then you are a riparian landowner, just as you would be if the ditch were not covered and you can discharge into it as the permit allows.

IF however the ditch is NOT on your land but adjacent to it, then you will need permission from the landowner to lay a pipe on his land to pipe your outflow into the ditch.

The covered ditch that the treatment plant will connect into is on our land. But it flows into another that is not.
So in the below plan, we are purchasing the land encircled in red, our drainage ditch is down the left side of the straight red boundary line (on the land) and in the top right corner it flows into the covered ditch (highlighted yellow) that is not on our land.


Thanks for the comments re the Klargester, as you can imagine we are just at the very beginning of choosing a treatment plant so that was given as an example of the sort of thing we are going for, i.e. a decent treatment system as opposed to a septic tank.

greatcrested

ProDave said:

Please don't fit a Biodisk.  That works on having moving mechanical parts down in the brown smelly stuff.  Trust me you do not want the job of repairing it WHEN it goes wrong.

Instead choose a treatment plant that works on an air blower to agitate the "stuff" such as Conder, Vortex, Graff, Bio Pure and several others.  Only an air blower pump to go wrong and that lives in the dry and is easy to replace.

We have just installed a new treatment plant. Went through exactly this thought process and chose an Apex (very similar to the WTE  Vortex). Air blower is external and is the only thing that can go wrong so is easy to fix/replace.

In our case the Vortex /Apex were the best options also as they work well when under-used. The plant size is dictated (Building Regs) by number of bedrooms. Total 7 bedrooms so size must be appropriate for 12 people. But with only 3 people in occupation most systems would not work efficiently, except the WTE systems.