Consumer Rights regarding damaged packaging

Mr_Bigglesworth_2

Hi all
Just wondering what the rights are when it comes to wanting to reject an item, ordered online and delivered to home, because the packaging is damaged.  This is an electronic item costing c. £230, and it came with a dent to the bottom corner and some cracking across the the bottom of the box.  The box itself does seem quite sturdy so the item inside is possibly okay, I haven't taken the cellophane wrapping off as yet to find out.
The company has said it can be returned but will not refund postage as the item inside has no damage (not sure how they can be quite so definitive about this).
I would not have purchased it if it was in a shop, and who knows what impact will do to the life expectancy of the product. In addition return postage is likely to be substantial on this item (3kg and high value).
I'm wondering if there is any clear consumer rights regarding this, much of what I have read refers to the product being faulty; I suppose this may depend on the definition of product in this case: does it include the original box packaging etc? Any guidance is helpful.

DCFC79

Any photos of the damage ?

davidmcn

I wouldn't say the "product" normally includes the packaging. I think you would need to go down the "change of mind" route unless you can demonstrate the item itself is actually damaged.

Mr_Bigglesworth_2

DCFC79 said:

Any photos of the damage ?

Yep, took a photo as soon as it was out of the thin dpd wrapper (no bubble wrap etc) and sent it to them.

davidmcn said:

I wouldn't say the "product" normally includes the packaging. I think you would need to go down the "change of mind" route unless you can demonstrate the item itself is actually damaged.

I believe that this is essentially their position; however, that doesn't feel fair, e.g. if buying an expensive consumer good, e.g. a mobile phone or a dyson hair dryer, it is worth more fully boxed than without a box - demonstrating the value of the packaging to the overall product. 

davidmcn

Mr_Bigglesworth_2 said:

davidmcn said:

I wouldn't say the "product" normally includes the packaging. I think you would need to go down the "change of mind" route unless you can demonstrate the item itself is actually damaged.

I believe that this is essentially their position; however, that doesn't feel fair, e.g. if buying an expensive consumer good, e.g. a mobile phone or a dyson hair dryer, it is worth more fully boxed than without a box - demonstrating the value of the packaging to the overall product. 

You haven't told us what the product is, but how much difference can you demonstrate it actually makes to the second-hand value?

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/9/enacted

(3)The quality of goods includes their state and condition; and the following aspects (among others) are in appropriate cases aspects of the quality of goods—

(a)fitness for all the purposes for which goods of that kind are usually supplied;

(b)appearance and finish;

(c)freedom from minor defects;

(d)safety;

(e)durability.

As above the Act refers to the goods not a product, the packaging is part of the goods and thus should be free from minor defects.

Consumer rights aside, I've always been in two minds about this, on the one hand goods should be packaged correctly, on the other the constant driving down of price can't justify "over" packaging goods to protect the outer box for the odd person who cares (not that there's anything wrong with that and with some products I fall within that group who do care about the outer box). 

unholyangel

I think it depends on packaging & the item. A brown box & packing peanuts to ensure it's safety during delivery adds no value to the item. But I think manufacturing packaging is different in most cases. Evidenced by unboxed or open box items being sold for less by retailers, trade ins being given a higher value if the box is present (and more still if in good condition), that the retailer can make a deduction for missing manufacturing packaging (but not generic packaging like a brown box) when cancelling under CCRs etc. 

Same with the damage. If it was something where it has internal components that move and might be damaged even with padding around the item itself (like a hard drive), I might be more wary about accepting it - depending on the nature and extent of the damage. The wording of "cracking" on the bottom of the box puzzles me though - trying to think what sort of electrical item would come in a box that would crack rather than rip/tear. Crack implies a hard material like plastic. 

But it may all be irrelevant. When you entered the contract, were you provided information in a durable medium telling you that you would be liable for return postage costs? Emails are durable but websites (including links to websites sent by email) are not. If they didn't, the law says they're liable for return costs. If the goods can't be returned by normal post, perhaps because they're bulky or heavy (I don't know what the limits are, not sure if royal mail would have it on their website) then they also need to have told you how much it would cost to return. 

Sandtree

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:.

As above the Act refers to the goods not a product, the packaging is part of the goods and thus should be free from minor defects.

It’s an interesting point and not one I’ve ever seen before so don’t know the right answer however if you take the idea that packaging is part of the goods i do struggle a little with the idea you could ask for a refund on a 18 month old £3,000 tv that works perfectly because you say the cardboard box’s bottom has given way and so didn’t meet the requirement for durability 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Sandtree said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:.

As above the Act refers to the goods not a product, the packaging is part of the goods and thus should be free from minor defects.

It’s an interesting point and not one I’ve ever seen before so don’t know the right answer however if you take the idea that packaging is part of the goods i do struggle a little with the idea you could ask for a refund on a 18 month old £3,000 tv that works perfectly because you say the cardboard box’s bottom has given way and so didn’t meet the requirement for durability 

I think of it more as the presentation when new, particularly for gifting or collectables.

I guess to the letter there may be a claim but you might end up with a roll of tape as a repair.

unholyangel said:

I think it depends on packaging & the item. A brown box & packing peanuts to ensure it's safety during delivery adds no value to the item. 

Just to clarify to the thread, my above post was referring to the manufacturers packaging, it wouldn't have crossed my mind the OP could be referring to the retailers outer postal packaging.

bris

Packing is there to protect the goods inside, you could say the packaging has done it's job if the goods inside are ok.

Mr_Bigglesworth_2

unholyangel said:

I think it depends on packaging & the item. A brown box & packing peanuts to ensure it's safety during delivery adds no value to the item. But I think manufacturing packaging is different in most cases. Evidenced by unboxed or open box items being sold for less by retailers, trade ins being given a higher value if the box is present (and more still if in good condition), that the retailer can make a deduction for missing manufacturing packaging (but not generic packaging like a brown box) when cancelling under CCRs etc. 

Same with the damage. If it was something where it has internal components that move and might be damaged even with padding around the item itself (like a hard drive), I might be more wary about accepting it - depending on the nature and extent of the damage. The wording of "cracking" on the bottom of the box puzzles me though - trying to think what sort of electrical item would come in a box that would crack rather than rip/tear. Crack implies a hard material like plastic. 

But it may all be irrelevant. When you entered the contract, were you provided information in a durable medium telling you that you would be liable for return postage costs? Emails are durable but websites (including links to websites sent by email) are not. If they didn't, the law says they're liable for return costs. If the goods can't be returned by normal post, perhaps because they're bulky or heavy (I don't know what the limits are, not sure if royal mail would have it on their website) then they also need to have told you how much it would cost to return. 

Hello, so it is the retail packaging that I am thinking of, not a generic brown box packaging or jiffy bag etc. The extra packaging around the retail box was a cellophane wrapper and then in a DPD thin plastic envelope wrapped tight around the box. Each of the corners of the DPD thin plastic envelope has rips, with one bigger than the others (where the main impact damage was to the box). The cracking refers to the cardboard,  it's  ripped along the seam from the corner that has the crumpled corner.

Thanks for the information on durable media. So I checked again regarding the email that was sent and it does have their returns process back (which is within 90 days). It says to download a returns slip and return the package  in saleable condition (include its original packaging). It does not explicitly state who is paying for the return costs. It does recommend "customers select a service, which offers a tracking number when sending back returns" and it states that they "are not responsible for lost packages." It does not state how much return cost is (looks like it could be £20 from my a quick look around).

The fact that they want original packaging back must also show that it has value.

bris said:

Packing is there to protect the goods inside, you could say the packaging has done it's job if the goods inside are ok.

With an electronic device (back massage gun) how do you know if such an impact has actually caused damage and shortened the life of the product?

Edit/ After stopping responding to my emails, I raised a dispute through the payment provider. They responded within hours offering for the item to be collected as I requested initially!