Open Plan Kitchen/Diner Extension possibilities

timk22

Hi all,
Been looking on the forums for a while now trying to get some idea on what could be possible for what I would like to do to my new house!

Context:
We are moving from a 3 bed semi, where my office space is situated in the corner of the living room, to a 4 bed detached. The new house does not have any office space so we want to create some on the downstairs plan. The reason for this is we currently have 3 functional bedrooms where we are and there wouldn't be much point in moving to a 4 bed house if we sacrificed one of the bedrooms permanently for an office space. Ideally, we would like to retain the integral garage to use as storage (for things and a 'toy' car), although we may have to rethink that if our budget won't stretch.

Problem:
Anyway, the main problem is creating a fully open plan space at the rear of the property. My initial idea was to do a 2-3m full width (single storey) extension off the rear elevation (approx 8.5-9m wide) along with an internal mix around to create the spaces that we want. But when taking out the load baring wall at the rear, you have to have a certain width of 'return' wall to support the existing upstairs structure and place an RSJ on to create the opening. I've read that generally speaking this would be in the region of 500-650mm which would ruin the aesthetic for me and also be a right pain to design a kitchen around.

Question:
I've done a bit of research and read about Steel Moment Frames or Goalposts which would help to lessen the 'intrusion' in to the space but have not found anything concrete about how much of a reduction they would bring. In the below, I've highlighted where the returns would be and also attached the existing downstairs plan. This is based on a 2m extension. I'm not saying or wanting zero returns, unless of course it is possible for a reasonable budget, but I also don't want to get too far forward with plans and designs in my head if you get what I mean? The returns in the plan below are 250mm, is that reasonable if we were to use a steel moment frame?

Doozergirl

You can get that with goalposts, but you're in an existing building and that is a long steel, meaning it needs to be big in all ways to hold the weight without flexing.   There's  a question over the required depth of it and how imposing it would be in the room.  I think you would need another support, at least, for the thing 

You're missing a trick with the office.  There's no way that keeping a garage as storage is preferable over losing all of the light from your lounge.    You'll devalue the house.   You have the space to split the garage between front and back, putting a door at the bottom of the stairs as well as one at the rear.  You can keep the back for storage if you want to.    

You haven't treated us to any dimensions, but it's worth asking yourself what you're really going to gain for the £00,000s you're spending on an extension there (plus a probable £10k on the steels with all the underpinning and additional mess created internally by that building work)    You've lost the utility, gained a two seater sofa and kept the cheapest place to extend as a glorified shed. 

Without extending, you can get a lovely kitchen with a good designer, and it would be a lot cheaper to build a good shed for storage (or a decent office room) and convert the garage.  People are quick to want big expensive extensions when a better use of existing space might be all that is required.  

If the utility isn't important, I'd be looking at reorganising the back of the house.  Lose the utility, flip the WC into the top part of the garage so you can 'extend' the kitchen internally.  Spend on the kitchen with a good designer.   Convert the garage into a second reception room.  One of the reception rooms can have a decent home office set up as part of it, using fitted furniture that can be shut up at the end of the day and act flexibly for you.  Put some value on interior design and you can save a fortune there.

People can only sit in so many places at one time!  

timk22

Thanks @Doozergirl - was hoping you'd chime in as you've had a lot of constructive posts on other threads I've read on here!

With regards the garage, there will almost certainly be a car in there. One that me and my father-in-law will take on track days but won't be a daily driver for either of us. The outside has a driveway, but only big enough for me and my wife's cars, so that car can't live there. 
I did do a design where we partially converted the garage with the rear portion being the office and the front metre or so that extends forward of the front door line being used for storage for things such as car cleaning and maintenance items, lawn mower etc. But that would mean we'd have to find somewhere else for the track car to live.
We've thought about and discussed a 'Garden Room' and although probably cheaper, it's far less practical due to having to go outside to get drinks or go to the toilet etc. Not great when it's raining or snowing.

The lounge was a big bug-bear for me. Finding a way to get natural light in to all of the rooms has been so tough (I'm no architect though, admittedly!). My justification was that the plan was for the door there to be a pocket door and that there was some living space in the extension part. The 'Living Room' was more of a cinema room or 'adult' living room, it could steal light from the main living space by having the doors open, but also keep it dark and intimate when closed (also best for when watching movies).
I've added sketches with proposed dimensions.

Doozergirl

The car adds the need for a garage.  When you said toy car, I took it literally!  

I'd seriously reconsider the lounge.    The seating area in the kitchen isn't going to be a family space unless you dedicate that to being a lounge and use the darker space as a dining area, as that is less used.     It's too much of a compromise to have a room where some of it is 8 metres from a window.   You can draw black out curtains to enjoy movies - the house isn't big enough to dedicate an important room to the dark.  

A less wide, but more square extension would give you an extra room, rather than just extra space.  Extending to the top left could create the kitchen diner on the 2/3 of the width of the house on the left, creating an office on the right hand side from the existing diner, leaving the lounge as it is.  

I'd still try to squidge the WC into the garage to square off the kitchen.  

And that 4th bedroom - is someone moving into it?  

What is the budget?  That's what you have to work to.

timk22

Haha, sorry figure of speech me and the F.I.L use!

It's by no means a done design, It's just the 'best' compromise that I've come up with so far! With regards to the fourth bedroom, no one is moving in straight away, but I have a thing about having my work space downstairs and keeping the bedroom as a bedroom for guests. We are moving far away from my family so will need room for when they visit. The office is also partly going to be my 'gaming' space, with my gaming PC/sim-racing rig and having that on the same level as the rest of the living space is a definite 'want' from me. We already have my current office space in the living room using fitted furniture and we really want to get away from that. We have a 15 month old and one day a week he is currently at home and has no concept of boundaries! That has really been a big driver in making a fully separate space. When we move in, the fourth bedroom will be my office temporarily until we get the downstairs plan finalised and built.

The house is going to be more of a hub for the extended family on my wife's side (once we are allowed to socialise again), so we want a big open space for entertaining, including the kitchen.
Budget would be £30-40k (not necessarily including the kitchen as many places offer good deals on finance packages)

NeverTooLate

timk22 said:

We already have my current office space in the living room using fitted furniture and we really want to get away from that. We have a 15 month old and one day a week he is currently at home and has no concept of boundaries!

This is a really good reason for building an office space out in the garden. I had my office out in a garden shed at the bottom of the garden and it really helps with separating work from family time. You're less distracted by the sounds of family life and the inconvenience of walking down the garden to go to work is minimal.

timk22

NeverTooLate said:

timk22 said:

We already have my current office space in the living room using fitted furniture and we really want to get away from that. We have a 15 month old and one day a week he is currently at home and has no concept of boundaries!

This is a really good reason for building an office space out in the garden. I had my office out in a garden shed at the bottom of the garden and it really helps with separating work from family time. You're less distracted by the sounds of family life and the inconvenience of walking down the garden to go to work is minimal.

It's all the other 'journeys' though. Mainly getting drinks, going to the toilet etc. Also, as I've also said in my previous post, I also spend some leisure time playing games on my PC. Having to go outside to the garden to do that would be less than ideal. Something to think about though.

Doozergirl

£30-40k isn't going to get you that, even excluding a new kitchen.   Make a list of what you want.  Then separate what you want and what you need... 

Have a look at study beds.  You 'need' space for guests but they don't spend so long that they need to have expensive real estate permanently dedicated to them.   So having a dedicated spare room is a 'want'.  Sofabeds also exist. 

https://www.studybed.co.uk/

You want, but don't need a downstairs study.  Your child is also likely to be downstairs during the day, so it is a separator.  

I really recommend getting on Pinterest and start looking for how people use fitted furniture and small space ideas.  Phrases like 'guest room study'.  Ikea are also great for showing how you can live flexibly.  

This sort of thing has been on my Pinterest board for years and it ended up forming the basis of an entire wall of secret spaces in our house.  

https://pin.it/2XsxmkZ
https://pin.it/3ChGItA
https://pin.it/5tIHd2D

There's an immense amount of satisfaction to be gained from being creative and using space wisely.  The joy I get from having planned what I need and the spaces dedicated to them gives me a little kick every day, and the house isn't finished yet!

timk22

Doozergirl said:

£30-40k isn't going to get you that, even excluding a new kitchen.   Make a list of what you want.  Then separate what you want and what you need..    

Have a look at study beds.  You 'need' space for guests but they don't spend so long that they need to have expensive real estate permanently dedicated to them.   So having a dedicated spare room is a 'want'.  Sofabeds also exist. 

I really recommend getting on Pinterest and start looking for how people use fitted furniture and small space ideas.  Ikea are also great for that kind of thing.  

This sort of thing has been on my Pinterest board for years and it ended up forming the basis of an entire wall of secret spaces in our house.  

Part of this is to get the study space downstairs, rather than upstairs. Temporarily, I can live with the office being in a bedroom and sacrificing that space. The main driver for the whole downstairs transformation is to get a downstairs dedicated office space. Also, there are often times when we have people staying with us on days where I am working, my job is 100% work from home, so I can't be taking up space where guests need to be. Especially as my hours are 7am-3pm. We always want to have at least one dedicated spare guest room that is always ready and available for guests as that is what we currently have. Temporarily, using the fourth bedroom as an office does not sacrifice that, but when our second kid comes along wanting their own room it will!

The problem with the hidden furniture idea is that I have a lot of equipment that I need (38" super-wide monitor + 16" laptop, keyboard, Mouse, multiple mobile devices, headset etc.) to do my job as well as a big office chair (Secret Lab Titan) as I'm a big bloke and sit in it for 6-9 hours a day. Hiding that all away is no trivial task. As neat as that first idea is aesthetically, I could not sit on a chair like that for 1 hour let alone 8!

One of the things we like about the current layout is that the living room can be both open as part of the main space but also closed off. We use the dining area a lot as we always eat at the table and will do going forward.

Will have to get an architect to suss it all out for me, or just do the garage conversion and find somewhere for the track car to live. 

Doozergirl

I'm giving you examples.  Some examples involve less, but bigger rooms or garden room that are flexible, some involve smaller rooms.   

You do need professional design help and to consider the compromises and where they can be made.  In a lot of cases, they aren't compromises at all. 

My suggestion of a deeper extension on the left side only would immediately give you the big kitchen diner, a proper sized separate study room on the right - just by putting up a stud wall with a door in it - and doesn't touch your correctly proportioned lounge with a window in it.    

And it would be infinitely cheaper than trying to open the entire back of the house up.   No compromises.  

timk22

Doozergirl said:

I'm giving you examples.  Some examples involve less, but bigger rooms or garden room that are flexible, some involve smaller rooms.   

You do need professional design help and to consider the compromises and where they can be made.  In a lot of cases, they aren't compromises at all. 

My suggestion of a deeper extension on the left side only would immediately give you the big kitchen diner, a proper sized separate study room on the right - just by putting up a stud wall with a door in it - and doesn't touch your correctly proportioned lounge with a window in it.    

And it would be infinitely cheaper than trying to open the entire back of the house up.   No compromises.  

This is a very good point. I had originally envisaged full open plan kitchen/dining/living all in one space, but money doesn't grow on trees! Having the kitchen/diner is a must and putting the office space between that and the living room does separate it off a bit which could be a positive and a negative. Will have a play.

Thank you for your suggestions!