covenant and commercial van

peppapig14

AdrianC said:

peppapig14 said:

thank you for all responses, I will attempt to answer all below
the estate was built in 1980, with a residents management org who employ a management org for upkeep of the estate ( about 8 roads , where other have no management org history 2 streets )
the residents management have 2 directors 
the management org has a new manager ( since Nov 2020 ) and has sent a letter advising we are breaking the covenant by parking the commercial van and have 10 days to move it or they will proceed further. knowing the area well there have been commercial vans parked here at least 6 years plus

there are other covenants that are regularly broken ( ie no-one asks when they change Windows, satellite dishes hanging up , etc ) and nothing has ever been done about these

None of that makes any difference.

The covenant was in place. You would or should have known this on purchase.
They are now enforcing it, as is their right.

How big a van are we talking about, and is it signwritten?

You have three choices...
1. Talk to them like a sensible adult, and see if a mutually acceptable compromise can be reached.
2. Follow their request, and park the van elsewhere.
3. Dig your heels in and wait for it to go legal.

1 and 2 can be done in parallel.
A failure of 1 can be followed by 3.
Going from 3 to 1 is not going to work...

the van is big and is signed with our business org
I will follow your advice of 1 and 2

AdrianC

Do you have a business base anywhere else?
Can the van be left there, and you buy a car to commute to that base?
Is there also a covenant preventing you from carrying on business from home...?

davidmcn

peppapig14 said:

davidmcn said:

None of that further information changes the advice already given. You haven't clarified, but I presume your rights over the space are only what you quoted ie you don't own it? 

yes we own the parking space

And have you quoted to us everything your titles say about what you can and can't do with that space? Like I said above, I think any prohibition on what you do with land you own would have to be more specific than what you quoted in your OP i.e. actually say you cannot use it for things other than parking a private car - not just be inferred from you being told you can use it for parking a private car.

princeofpounds

AdrianC said:

peppapig14 said:

thank you for all responses, I will attempt to answer all below
the estate was built in 1980, with a residents management org who employ a management org for upkeep of the estate ( about 8 roads , where other have no management org history 2 streets )
the residents management have 2 directors 
the management org has a new manager ( since Nov 2020 ) and has sent a letter advising we are breaking the covenant by parking the commercial van and have 10 days to move it or they will proceed further. knowing the area well there have been commercial vans parked here at least 6 years plus

there are other covenants that are regularly broken ( ie no-one asks when they change Windows, satellite dishes hanging up , etc ) and nothing has ever been done about these

None of that makes any difference.

The covenant was in place. You would or should have known this on purchase.
They are now enforcing it, as is their right.

How big a van are we talking about, and is it signwritten?

You have three choices...
1. Talk to them like a sensible adult, and see if a mutually acceptable compromise can be reached.
2. Follow their request, and park the van elsewhere.
3. Dig your heels in and wait for it to go legal.

1 and 2 can be done in parallel.
A failure of 1 can be followed by 3.
Going from 3 to 1 is not going to work...

There is one part that might make a difference if it went all the way to court. If the covenant has not been enforced for a long period of time (20 years is the usual yardstick) and that can be demonstrated (by statutory declarations, for example) then actual enforcement of the covenant is highly unlikely. But I'm not sure I would fancy going to court to argue it! 

peppapig14

davidmcn said:

peppapig14 said:

davidmcn said:

None of that further information changes the advice already given. You haven't clarified, but I presume your rights over the space are only what you quoted ie you don't own it? 

yes we own the parking space

And have you quoted to us everything your titles say about what you can and can't do with that space? Like I said above, I think any prohibition on what you do with land you own would have to be more specific than what you quoted in your OP i.e. actually say you cannot use it for things other than parking a private car...

covenants state 
1. not to use the land except as a single private residential dwelling for sole occupation of transferred and any parking space transferred only for parking of one private motor car and to use external common areas for the same
2. no caravans or boats shall be parked on the estate

peppapig14

AdrianC said:

Do you have a business base anywhere else?
Can the van be left there, and you buy a car to commute to that base?
Is there also a covenant preventing you from carrying on business from home...?

We are investigating if we can park on the roadside where it is pay by meter ( away from the house) as we have no base elsewhere
nothing about preventing carrying on business but states must use as private residential dwelling for transferee- although half the estate is rented via estate agents / airbnb/ holiday let's etc 

ProDave

peppapig14 said:

davidmcn said:

peppapig14 said:

davidmcn said:

None of that further information changes the advice already given. You haven't clarified, but I presume your rights over the space are only what you quoted ie you don't own it? 

yes we own the parking space

And have you quoted to us everything your titles say about what you can and can't do with that space? Like I said above, I think any prohibition on what you do with land you own would have to be more specific than what you quoted in your OP i.e. actually say you cannot use it for things other than parking a private car...

covenants state 
1. not to use the land except as a single private residential dwelling for sole occupation of transferred and any parking space transferred only for parking of one private motor car and to use external common areas for the same
2. no caravans or boats shall be parked on the estate

It does NOT say you cannot park a van on the estate, so park the van on the street rather than in a parking space.

davidmcn

ProDave said:

peppapig14 said:

davidmcn said:

peppapig14 said:

davidmcn said:

None of that further information changes the advice already given. You haven't clarified, but I presume your rights over the space are only what you quoted ie you don't own it? 

yes we own the parking space

And have you quoted to us everything your titles say about what you can and can't do with that space? Like I said above, I think any prohibition on what you do with land you own would have to be more specific than what you quoted in your OP i.e. actually say you cannot use it for things other than parking a private car...

covenants state 
1. not to use the land except as a single private residential dwelling for sole occupation of transferred and any parking space transferred only for parking of one private motor car and to use external common areas for the same
2. no caravans or boats shall be parked on the estate

It does NOT say you cannot park a van on the estate

...if there are any roads in the estate which are not "external common areas", that is...

Morrigan_2020

Alan2020 said:

Morrigan_2020 said:

Alan2020 said:

Morrigan_2020 said:

These new build covenants are so snobby, we need to get a grip on this before we end up with US style HOAs dictating what plants people can grow and how many garden gnomes they're allowed. 

They only exist due to inconsiderate people, for instance some ignoramus parked his motorhome in his parking space, blocking  access to our spaces and arguing he could.  Only the covenant helped us.  So no I would highly encourage covenants to protect innocent people from selfish stupid people.  Sadly there will be collateral damage, which you can check before you buy or rent.  Another case where someone parked a removal lorry in his parking space blocking access to other spaces, how can you deal with this legally without a covenant.  In an uncivilised society a thorough beating will enlighten people, but we do live in a society with rules and responsibilities.

People mostly manage without covenants, there are none on my street and everybody just behaves decently for the most part, that's vans, cars, caravans, motorhomes and a few sleighs at christmas. 

Inconsiderate people are not as common as you think. 

Ha Ha, move to some parts of London 

I can't think of a single reason why I would ever want to do that, but I'm sure most people in London are decent people too. 

Morrigan_2020

AdrianC said:

Morrigan_2020 said:

These new build covenants are so snobby, we need to get a grip on this before we end up with US style HOAs dictating what plants people can grow and how many garden gnomes they're allowed. 

The simple and direct way to resolve it is to not buy a house with that covenant in place.
Nothing else will be effective.

People said that about leasehold, but then it got harder and harder to do so as there just weren't enough new homes being built that didn't come with the problems. 

The new build my parents bought in the early nineties technically had covenants, those are 30 year old houses now, so you have to go back a fair way to be sure!