Bank Mis-processes Solicitor's Payment for Sale

Fighter1986

born_again said:

Ed-1 said:

Was it a CHAPS payment? Usually payments from Solicitors are. These require someone to manually credit the funds received into an account.

As such I would expect that a member of staff at the solicitors entered the details for the payment. Not their bank to make the payment.

I would be asking the solicitor for proof that it has been made to the correct account.

You misunderstand, CHAPS payments are (traditionally) manually keyed by the receiving bank, rather than using an automated process a'la BACS or FP. There could have been a mis-keying at HSBC (M&S)

xylophone

I gave my solicitor my M&S Bank details.

A couple of weeks ago, the money had not arrived. I took this up with my solicitor and they confirmed that they had made the payment and they confirmed with their bank (Lloyds) the payment had cleared and the details were correct.

What evidence has the solicitor given you that this payment was made to your account with M&S?

Why has the solicitor's bank not initiated a trace?

cpx2

@born_again, @Ed-1, @Fighter1986, @colsten, @eskbanker - many thanks for your comments.
The CoP from MSE https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2020/06/confirmation-of-payee/ "The six major banking groups – Barclays, HSBC (including First Direct), Lloyds (including Halifax and Bank of Scotland), Nationwide, RBS (including NatWest and Ulster) and Santander – had until Tuesday 30 June to implement it for Faster Payments and Chaps payments under Payment Systems Regulator rules. Other banks didn't have a deadline, and have a choice whether they want to roll this out to their customers or not"
So, Lloyds and HSBC are listed and one would have expected if a wrong account number or sort code was used (as originally claimed by M&S), that the payee name would be checked.
To confirm, it was a CHAPS payment and the solicitors have passed onto me the details of the payment (which I have passed to M&S) and they are all correct. Their bank has confirmed the payment was made/cleared as instructed. However, M&S despite being asked a few times, have not confirmed that these are the instructions they received.
But guys what I am interested in (and concerned by) is the implication in all the responses from M&S is that if they paid away the money through a mistake in THIER processes that I am then responsible. So, if they do not get the money back from who they paid it to, then I will not get it. This seems to me mistaken. The money is fungible, so if they paid money away by mistake, it is their money not mine - and they are still liable to make the payment to me as instructed. Does anyone know anything about this?

cpx2

@xylophone - thanks for the reply. The solicitor passed back to me their bank's report on the CHAPs payment - it is correct. Their bank have checked the payment and it says that it has cleared into the instructed account. I have asked the solicitors to ask their bank to make a complaint to M&S/HSBC about the payment - and this is underway.

Fighter1986

You are in absolutely no way, shape or form liable for any mistakes made by M&S / HSBC. That's utter claptrap.

File a formal complaint with M&S explaining that you have proof the CHAPS payment was sent to your current account and explain that in resolution to the matter you will accept no less than the funds immediately being credited to your account, with an additional amount of statutory interest to be paid covering the time you have been without the funds, at the legally applicable rate of 8% per annum. 

Advise that should funds not be credited to your account within the applicable timeframes that the matter will be escalated to the FOS and there will be an expectation for appropriate recompense to be paid atop the statutory applicable interest and the original sum due from your solicitors. 

Don't take any s***. Make the formal complaint verbally over the phone and follow it up immediately with everything you said, in writing, to their complaints email address or postal address which you obtain from the advisor over the phone. You can attach / enclose the evidence provided to you by your solicitors and their bank Lloyds. 

I'm still a little bewildered as to exactly what on earth they are talking about; if you have the time and patience I (and I'm sure others) would really appreciate an update on exactly what they have to say about the matter when you call them back to file a formal complaint and shove the proverbial rocket up their bottom. 

naedanger

I am not sure if this has been said already, or if its relevant, but the timescale a business has to issue a final response to a complaint about payment services, such as bank transfers or direct debits, is 15 days. (Still a long time given the circumstances.)
Source:
https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/consumers/expect/time-limits 
Be sure to check if you solicitor is going to charge you for the extra work involved. If they are then aim to get those charges refunded from the party who caused the problem.

Armorica

I find this thread really confusing. 

On the surface, it sounds like your solicitor/their bank sent the money to the wrong place.

There is no process that would lead to M&S randomly sending money destined to your current account with them to an overseas account.

M&S can't confirm instructions for a payment they have never seen/received. Which is why it is super odd they are saying it's been sent overseas.

If you can provide further information on precisely what your solicitor has said (and does what you've seen from their bank actually look authentic?).

Armorica

Fighter1986 said:

born_again said:

Ed-1 said:

Was it a CHAPS payment? Usually payments from Solicitors are. These require someone to manually credit the funds received into an account.

As such I would expect that a member of staff at the solicitors entered the details for the payment. Not their bank to make the payment.

I would be asking the solicitor for proof that it has been made to the correct account.

You misunderstand, CHAPS payments are (traditionally) manually keyed by the receiving bank, rather than using an automated process a'la BACS or FP. There could have been a mis-keying at HSBC (M&S)

This is correct for outgoing payments. It's not common for payments received as long as the details are accurate and don't need to be repaired/identified.

cpx2

@Fighter1986, @naedanger, @Armorica many thanks for your responses.

Just for clarity we are engaged in making a formal complaint but with little progress.

@Fighter1986 I can relate to your 'anger', it is really odd. You mention at the legally applicable rate of 8% per annum - be good to know more about this.

@naedanger thanks for the link, we will mention this next time we correspond to the bank. But it does say "A business has 15 days to consider complaints about: payment services – such as bank transfers or direct debits" - in other words, to consider, not to fix.

@Armorica - the solicitor has confirmed that the documentation they sent us came from the bank - and it certainly looks authentic. We have no reason to think, at the moment, that there is a problem at the solicitors end. The only open issue here is that we have asked the solicitor to raise the issue with their bank as M&S has failed to act correctly on the paying bank's instructions, so they are the immediate party to the transaction. As you say it seems odd that an automated payment should go astray.

A recent excerpt from M&S Complaints Department: "As discussed I’ve been attempting to receive an update on your missing payment. Your missing payment is currently being investigated by EPS Services.... They are a highly specialist team, so only they can deal with the claim itself. I'm afraid no department, including Complaints, can override their processes or change anything they can or cannot do for a customer. I cannot give you a specific timescale of how long your case will take, I am chasing for updates daily." While I appreciate the M&S employee is probably only trying to do his job as best they can, I have pointed out that even the EPS Department, whoever they are, is expected to act within the law.
Many thanks again.

Fighter1986

cpx2 said:

@Fighter1986, @naedanger, @Armorica many thanks for your responses.

Just for clarity we are engaged in making a formal complaint but with little progress.

@Fighter1986 I can relate to your 'anger', it is really odd. You mention at the legally applicable rate of 8% per annum - be good to know more about this.

|The Financial Ombudsman award 8% annual interest for losses, as outlined in their brief:

https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/consumers/expect/compensation

It's the accepted standard rate of interest applicable for judgement debt or a loss to a consumer which was later repaid, to cover costs incurred by the consumer for not having the funds in hand when they should have. 

Thank you for the update, and as ever, good luck!