Tenants in Common and property to leave to children ON TRUST

Savvy_Sue

flying_flanders said:

xylophone said:

https://www.gov.uk/joint-property-ownership/change-from-joint-tenants-to-tenants-in-common

thank you, but... neither that guide nor the form notes say anything about the deed document itself and whether to send it or not.
The form DOES say in:  "7 (A) All registered proprietors of the title number referred to in panel 2 are applying (no further evidence is required)." my understanding is that this is referring to evidence of severance if only one party is applying.
But the deed document isn't 'evidence' right? it is the document to be amended with the TiC clause.
Or am I missing something? 

I'm not aware that 'deeds' are sent anywhere these days. As I understand it, what matters is what's registered at the Land Registry. You can download what's there, for a small charge, and that's definitive. 

someone will correct me if I'm wrong ... 

Dox

flying_flanders said:

Keep_pedalling said:

flying_flanders said:

Yes I think it will be the common IPDI Trust, my wife and I want to allow the surviving one of us, to live in the property immediately after the first death whilst our two sons will inherit 25% each of the property 'in trust' whilst also protecting the surviving spouses' 50% share of the property for our two sons should the surviving spouse end up requiring care

It will not protect the surviving spouses share, as they will still own that. If residential care is required the survivor will still have assets to to self fund, and in reality that is a good thing if you want to avoid over my dead body grange.

yes I see what your saying, my wording wasn't ideal, wife would still own 50% agreed, but doesn't the protection come from the fact that the TiC arrangement means the authorities can't 'seize' the asset/force a sale to pay for care costs?

Have you asked your offspring if they would be happy to see one of you end your days in some smelly old dump so they can inherit?

Harsh as this comment sounds, taxpayers aren't there to provide an inheritance for other people's children. The law in this area is only going to get tighter as the population ages and care costs increase.

You sound as though you're going the DIY route? Relying on free advice on a forum like this isn't a substitute for proper professional advice.

The LA will do one of two things: either decline to contribute to the costs of care in the first place; or only do so in exchange for a charge over the property, so that they get their share + interest (up to a maximum of half the eventual sale cost when the property is sold). 

 

elsien

flying_flanders said:

Keep_pedalling said:

flying_flanders said:

Yes I think it will be the common IPDI Trust, my wife and I want to allow the surviving one of us, to live in the property immediately after the first death whilst our two sons will inherit 25% each of the property 'in trust' whilst also protecting the surviving spouses' 50% share of the property for our two sons should the surviving spouse end up requiring care

It will not protect the surviving spouses share, as they will still own that. If residential care is required the survivor will still have assets to to self fund, and in reality that is a good thing if you want to avoid over my dead body grange.

yes I see what your saying, my wording wasn't ideal, wife would still own 50% agreed, but doesn't the protection come from the fact that the TiC arrangement means the authorities can't 'seize' the asset/force a sale to pay for care costs?

The local authority does not seize assets nor does it force a sale. 

The property is likely to be disregarded from the financial assessment if the other spouse is still living there. 

If one partner dies and the other goes into care, or adult children are still living there, then a deferred payment agreement could be entered into, to be paid when the property is sold. 

It is a minority of people who end up in care; many people are able to stay at home with support.

I do think if you’re planning all this to avoid care home fees then you should at least have a proper idea about the process actually works.
I would suggest heading to the Age Uk website and reading their fact sheet on paying for care. 

Dox

elsien said:

flying_flanders said:

Keep_pedalling said:

flying_flanders said:

Yes I think it will be the common IPDI Trust, my wife and I want to allow the surviving one of us, to live in the property immediately after the first death whilst our two sons will inherit 25% each of the property 'in trust' whilst also protecting the surviving spouses' 50% share of the property for our two sons should the surviving spouse end up requiring care

It will not protect the surviving spouses share, as they will still own that. If residential care is required the survivor will still have assets to to self fund, and in reality that is a good thing if you want to avoid over my dead body grange.

yes I see what your saying, my wording wasn't ideal, wife would still own 50% agreed, but doesn't the protection come from the fact that the TiC arrangement means the authorities can't 'seize' the asset/force a sale to pay for care costs?

The local authority does not seize assets nor does it force a sale. 

The property is likely to be disregarded from the financial assessment if the other spouse is still living there. 

I think OP is specifically asking about the 'surviving spouse', so unless the deceased is planning to come back and do a spot of haunting...!

xylophone

Are we all at cross purposes?

The OP and his wife have decided to sever the joint tenancy so that their home will be held as tenants in common.

As far as the LR is concerned, they remain legally joint proprietors of the property but each has a beneficial interest in half the property.

A Form A  restriction will be registered on severance.  https://www.deedoftrust.co.uk/restrictions/

 Form A restriction 
No disposition by a sole proprietor of the registered estate (except a trust corporation) under which capital money arises is to be registered unless authorised by an order of the court.

Should one of the  spouses need to go into care, the value of the property would be disregarded in any means test while the other  spouse continued to occupy the property.

Should both require care, then the value of the property would  be taken into account in any means test and clearly should it need to be sold to finance care, then any provisions in their wills regarding the property  would be void.

Assuming that one spouse is still occupying the property on the death of the other spouse, then the provisions of the deceased's will regarding the IPDI Trust will come into effect.

Should the survivor need to go into care, then only his/her beneficial interest  could be taken into account in any means test.

If the property is sold, what happens to the sale proceeds would depend on the exact provisions of the Trust.

It might be that it  would come to an end immediately the survivor no longer required the property so that the remainder men (the sons) would receive  half the sale proceeds.

Or it  might be that the provisions of the Trust would require that the half of the sale proceeds relating to the Trust would have to be invested to give the survivor the income (but not the capital) until he or she died at which time the remainder men (the sons) would inherit the capital.

The OP and spouse will no doubt be taking professional advice concerning their wills and the provisions of the IPDI Trust.

getmore4less

chat01 said:

Hello, I have ...........

Best to start your own thread.
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/post/discussion/deaths-funerals-probate

Mojisola

flying_flanders said:

yes I see what your saying, my wording wasn't ideal, wife would still own 50% agreed, but doesn't the protection come from the fact that the TiC arrangement means the authorities can't 'seize' the asset/force a sale to pay for care costs?

The TIC agreement will mean that the deceased spouse's share can't be used to fund the survivor's residential share but the survivor's share will be counted in the financial assessment.  The survivor would be self-funding and the council wouldn't be further involved.

If the house isn't going to be sold, the council could step in and pay their basic amount (which would restrict the choice of care home unless a top-up payment is paid).  The council would then put a charge on the property deeds and whatever has been spent on the care home fees by the council rate payers would be reclaimed when the house was sold.