A cashless society - peer to peer payments?

Type_45

I don't know which thread to put this in, and so I've gone for this one. The economy thread is closed.

This is a really important topic. The powers that be want to abolish cash. They will doubtless get their way. And maybe within the next 10 years.

In a cashless society, how do we pay each other for services without having to do so electronically and being charged fees and being monitored? 

In Kenya I believe people pay each other with mobile phone minutes. How would we do it in the UK?

We need to start thinking about this, and quickly.

AlanP_2

Same way many of us do now - card / contactless and/or bank transfer and/or one of the phone pay systems

eskbanker

There are already many more ways of making payments between individuals and businesses than have ever been in place before, and it's only to be expected that over time some will become less popular for a whole variety of reasons.  Those who are minded to see this as some sort of Establishment conspiracy will just have to get used to the idea but can perhaps wave some 'stop the steal' placards about or join some crypto cults if it makes them feel better....

Type_45

eskbanker said:

There are already many more ways of making payments between individuals and businesses than have ever been in place before, and it's only to be expected that over time some will become less popular for a whole variety of reasons.  Those who are minded to see this as some sort of Establishment conspiracy will just have to get used to the idea but can perhaps wave some 'stop the steal' placards about or join some crypto cults if it makes them feel better....

A conspiracy requires secrecy. The moves towards the abolishion of cash is openly planned and available online.

The Bank of England has a page on it's website about the Central Bank Digital Currency (CBDC) it is planning. 

CBDC will replace the pound. It will eventually be entirely digital and cash will be phased out.

Once that's in place, the BoE/government will know where every £ is. They'll know who has what. Who has paid whom.

They'll be no privacy.

These aren't my words. These are the words of the BIS and supranational bodies who are openly working to make this happen.

Type_45

AlanP_2 said:

Same way many of us do now - card / contactless and/or bank transfer and/or one of the phone pay systems

All of which carry fees (or can be made to) and are traceable.

If I give you £10 for washing my car it is between us and cannot be interfered with or monitored.

[Deleted User]

Type_45 said:

eskbanker said:

There are already many more ways of making payments between individuals and businesses than have ever been in place before, and it's only to be expected that over time some will become less popular for a whole variety of reasons.  Those who are minded to see this as some sort of Establishment conspiracy will just have to get used to the idea but can perhaps wave some 'stop the steal' placards about or join some crypto cults if it makes them feel better....

A conspiracy requires secrecy. The moves towards the abolishion of cash is openly planned and available online.

The Bank of England has a page on it's website about the Central Bank Digital Currency (CBDC) it is planning. 

CBDC will replace the pound. It will eventually be entirely digital and cash will be phased out.

Once that's in place, the BoE/government will know where every £ is. They'll know who has what. Who has paid whom.

They'll be no privacy.

These aren't my words. These are the words of the BIS and supranational bodies who are openly working to make this happen.

The BoE site says no such thing.
The CBDC is entirely a discussion idea, there has been no decision made on it and it's still in the realms of if it is even possible to do so. The whole point is that the BoE is considering offering a service to go alongside other payment methods due to the fact that consumers are choosing to stop using cash which is still around 28% of transactions (as of 2018). All this tinfoil hat nonsense about governments tracking your every penny and wiping out cash is laughable - more so because the people who talk about it almost always have facebook, a mobile phone, supermarket points card, etc all of which mean you can be tracked to the nearest inch and second. If you want to do everything in cash because you think the government cares that you paid someone to wash your car then feel free to do so.

Type_45

Deleted_User said:

Type_45 said:

eskbanker said:

There are already many more ways of making payments between individuals and businesses than have ever been in place before, and it's only to be expected that over time some will become less popular for a whole variety of reasons.  Those who are minded to see this as some sort of Establishment conspiracy will just have to get used to the idea but can perhaps wave some 'stop the steal' placards about or join some crypto cults if it makes them feel better....

A conspiracy requires secrecy. The moves towards the abolishion of cash is openly planned and available online.

The Bank of England has a page on it's website about the Central Bank Digital Currency (CBDC) it is planning. 

CBDC will replace the pound. It will eventually be entirely digital and cash will be phased out.

Once that's in place, the BoE/government will know where every £ is. They'll know who has what. Who has paid whom.

They'll be no privacy.

These aren't my words. These are the words of the BIS and supranational bodies who are openly working to make this happen.

The BoE site says no such thing.
The CBDC is entirely a discussion idea, there has been no decision made on it and it's still in the realms of if it is even possible to do so. The whole point is that the BoE is considering offering a service to go alongside other payment methods due to the fact that consumers are choosing to stop using cash which is still around 28% of transactions (as of 2018). All this tinfoil hat nonsense about governments tracking your every penny and wiping out cash is laughable - more so because the people who talk about it almost always have facebook, a mobile phone, supermarket points card, etc all of which mean you can be tracked to the nearest inch and second. If you want to do everything in cash because you think the government cares that you paid someone to wash your car then feel free to do so.

Just want to first of all call you out on the "28% of transactions are cash" BS.

There is no way of knowing how many cash transactions there are each day. I may have made 1,000 cash transactions today, and your stats won't know about them. That's the beauty of cash.

The only cash stats you know of are the ones reported by shops. The peer to peer cash payments are not known, and I would imagine are in the millions each day/week.

Cash is king. And if there was one thing you could give people to give them freedom it would be cash.

csgohan4

This belongs in the money saver arms. 

DiggerUK

States will always look for ways to increase their control over its citizenry, we all in our own fashion  look for ways to make our Iives easy. Just always raise your voice against tyrants.

Cash is something Digger Mansions has used less and less over the years, since contactless especially. We could live without cash, but it is still nice to give grandkids money in birthday and christmas cards, I'd like an alternative to that.

We only use cheques when leaving payment out for milk and papers, very rarely for anything else.

Change is change, with a cashless society I'm happy to learn to live with it. Bar the shouting it already is cashless..._

AlanP_2

Type_45 said:

Deleted_User said:

Type_45 said:

eskbanker said:

There are already many more ways of making payments between individuals and businesses than have ever been in place before, and it's only to be expected that over time some will become less popular for a whole variety of reasons.  Those who are minded to see this as some sort of Establishment conspiracy will just have to get used to the idea but can perhaps wave some 'stop the steal' placards about or join some crypto cults if it makes them feel better....

A conspiracy requires secrecy. The moves towards the abolishion of cash is openly planned and available online.

The Bank of England has a page on it's website about the Central Bank Digital Currency (CBDC) it is planning. 

CBDC will replace the pound. It will eventually be entirely digital and cash will be phased out.

Once that's in place, the BoE/government will know where every £ is. They'll know who has what. Who has paid whom.

They'll be no privacy.

These aren't my words. These are the words of the BIS and supranational bodies who are openly working to make this happen.

The BoE site says no such thing.
The CBDC is entirely a discussion idea, there has been no decision made on it and it's still in the realms of if it is even possible to do so. The whole point is that the BoE is considering offering a service to go alongside other payment methods due to the fact that consumers are choosing to stop using cash which is still around 28% of transactions (as of 2018). All this tinfoil hat nonsense about governments tracking your every penny and wiping out cash is laughable - more so because the people who talk about it almost always have facebook, a mobile phone, supermarket points card, etc all of which mean you can be tracked to the nearest inch and second. If you want to do everything in cash because you think the government cares that you paid someone to wash your car then feel free to do so.

Just want to first of all call you out on the "28% of transactions are cash" BS.

There is no way of knowing how many cash transactions there are each day. I may have made 1,000 cash transactions today, and your stats won't know about them. That's the beauty of cash.

The only cash stats you know of are the ones reported by shops. The peer to peer cash payments are not known, and I would imagine are in the millions each day/week.

Cash is king. And if there was one thing you could give people to give them freedom it would be cash.

If those are commercial transactions, for goods and/or services (as oppposed to gifts) then the recipent will surely be recording them in their accounting system and thus they are recorded.

If, on the other hand, you mean small cash payments are an easy way for small traders to avoid tax / VAT etc. then you are correct, the hidden economy has been around for years and will not go away even if cash does.

When I ran my own business cash was the worst payment method for me to accept as the charges for paying it into a business bank account were higher than for cards / cheques (in those days) and BACS - let alone the time wasted going to a branch to queue up and pay it in.

eskbanker

Type_45 said:
The moves towards the abolishion of cash is openly planned and available online.

The Bank of England has a page on it's website about the Central Bank Digital Currency (CBDC) it is planning. 

CBDC will replace the pound. It will eventually be entirely digital and cash will be phased out.

As pointed out above, you're making this up.  Perhaps you should read the section of the discussion paper that specifically refers to preserving access to cash?

Joint Authorities Cash Strategy Group and the Wholesale Distribution Working Group 

In the UK, the Access to Cash Review (commissioned by ATM network LINK) concluded that the UK is not yet ready to go cashless (Access to Cash Review (2018)). It set out five recommendations, which call for: more co‑ordinated regulation and oversight of the whole cash system; a new wholesale cash infrastructure; a guarantee that the public will be able to access cash services; that cash remains widely accepted; and that digital payments are an option for everyone (Access to Cash Review (2019)). The first two of these recommendations are directly relevant to the Bank’s responsibilities on cash. 

The Bank’s formal responsibilities with respect to cash are: it is the sole issuer of banknotes in England and Wales; it delivers effective protection for holders of Scottish and Northern Ireland banknotes; and it oversees how banknotes are then distributed to the wholesale market (for example, entities such as banks and the Post Office). Therefore, in 2019 the Bank convened relevant industry stakeholders to develop a new system for wholesale cash distribution that is efficient, resilient and sustainable, including in a world with lower cash volumes. 

To ensure access to cash, the public needs to be able to withdraw and deposit cash. Given the shared responsibilities in this area, the Joint Authorities Cash Strategy Group was created. It has brought together HM Treasury (as chair), the Payments Systems Regulator, the Financial Conduct Authority and the Bank, with the objective of supporting access to cash for those who need it.