Landlord wanting to deduct from our deposit

Slithery

No-one is entitled to an in-person check out and I would say that they are very unusual as there is no point in them. I've never had one in all of my years of renting.

hazyjo

Up to the LL to prove it's justified. Not up to the tenant as such. If what you're saying is correct and it was in the same condition or better, just dispute it.

fiwen30

Slithery said:

No-one is entitled to an in-person check out and I would say that they are very unusual as there is no point in them. I've never had one in all of my years of renting.

Fair enough. In that case, if both parties haven’t seen the ‘after’ in person together at the same time, how would one solve a dispute such a this, when it’s one word against the other?

Slithery

By both parties providing their evidence to the deposit scheme, they'll never visit the property either.

[Deleted User]

fiwen30 said:

Slithery said:

No-one is entitled to an in-person check out and I would say that they are very unusual as there is no point in them. I've never had one in all of my years of renting.

Fair enough. In that case, if both parties haven’t seen the ‘after’ in person together at the same time, how would one solve a dispute such a this, when it’s one word against the other?

Ideally you would have taken your own photographs or a video to show the condition of the property when you moved out.  That's what I do and I've never been present when the landlord/letting agent has done their check-out inspection.  

That said the onus is on the landlord to prove the deductions are reasonable and from what you've said the check-in inventory is sparse.  However, it is possible the landlord can provide a receipt for cleaning prior to you moving in.  Who knows?  Whichever scheme your deposit is registered with will offer a dispute resolution service so I suggest using that if you and your landlord cannot agree.

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/sorting-out-disputes

fiwen30

Spoke to a lovely advisor at Housing Advice NI this afternoon, who assured me that my responsibility as a tenant only extends to leaving the property in as good a condition as it was when I moved in, which I did. It’s up to the landlord to provide proof that the house had been professionally cleaned before I moved in, and if this can’t be provided then the cost of professional cleaning shouldn’t be deducted from my deposit.

Forgot to ask whether or not I should be legally provided with a checkout inventory, so just waiting on hold to speak to someone again.

They advised I contact LL again, stating that the property was cleaned to the same standard as when I moved in, and that I don’t agree that professional cleaning costs should be deducted from the deposit, and then go to the custodial scheme and request my deposit back myself. After that, any sort of dispute resolution will be done through the scheme.

Still annoyed about the whole thing. After all the horror stories of ‘nightmare tenants’, you’d think a LL might be a bit more gracious at the end of a 4.5 year, honest, peaceful, reliable, tenancy. Hey ho.

[Deleted User]

fiwen30 said:

Spoke to a lovely advisor at Housing Advice NI this afternoon, who assured me that my responsibility as a tenant only extends to leaving the property in as good a condition as it was when I moved in, which I did. It’s up to the landlord to provide proof that the house had been professionally cleaned before I moved in, and if this can’t be provided then the cost of professional cleaning shouldn’t be deducted from my deposit.

Forgot to ask whether or not I should be legally provided with a checkout inventory, so just waiting on hold to speak to someone again.

They advised I contact LL again, stating that the property was cleaned to the same standard as when I moved in, and that I don’t agree that professional cleaning costs should be deducted from the deposit, and then go to the custodial scheme and request my deposit back myself. After that, any sort of dispute resolution will be done through the scheme.

Still annoyed about the whole thing. After all the horror stories of ‘nightmare tenants’, you’d think a LL might be a bit more gracious at the end of a 4.5 year, honest, peaceful, reliable, tenancy. Hey ho.

Did the lovely advisor say what constitutes a professional clean? Which professional body do the cleaners need to belong to? 

greatcrested

fiwen30 said:

dimbo61 said:

Did you get a check in inventory from the Letting agents/Landlord ?
Have you got the deposit details ?
Contact them in the morning and claim your full deposit back.
It is up to the Landlord to prove that you have left the property in a worse condition that when you moved in taking into account Fair Wear and Tear.
Now if the property is empty while the LL has it repainted, new decorations, EICR /GSC/ New EPC that is down to them and should be expected after 4 + years.
Dispute any and all deductions that the Landlords thinks you should pay.
I would also consider a Letter before Action if you don't receive your full deposit within 14 days.
Good luck

Thanks. I do have both an inventory and info on the deposit scheme, and will be making calls in the morning.

The only discrepancy I can see on the inventory, is that it included a washing machine. Now, this washing machine packed in after about a year of my tenancy. I contacted the landlord, who said that the washing machine at my house had been a cast off of their daughter’s when she replaced hers, and was included at the rental ‘as good will’, as so they wouldn’t be replacing it if it failed. I knew I could’ve pushed for a new one, as it had been included in the inventory, but I didn’t want to rock the boat. I replaced the washing machine out of pocket, and took it with me to our new house. I have text messages showing this, as proof.

What makes you think you could have "pushed for a new one"? Did the tenancy agreement say the LL was responsible for repair/replacement of the washing machine?

Do you have a letter/email from the LL agreeing to you disposing of his washing machine, or just a verbal recollection?

Re the check out: it is highly unusual for this to be done in the presence of the tenant.

It's also very common for it to be done by a 3rd person rather than the landlord. Indeed there is a professional body for this ( The AIIC ), though there is no legal requirement for the check-out inspector to be a member.

As you've rightly been advised, your obligation is to leave the property in the same (or better!) condition at the end as at the start, less fair wear and tear. It is for the LL to prove his claim that you did not, and the start/end reports are usually the key methods of proof (though not exclusively).

Any proposed deductions should be broken down and costed.

See my post here for more

Post 3: Deposits: Payment, Protection and Return.

FBaby

Grumpy_chap said:

If you have been there 4.5 years, always paid on time and in full, and not needed to make demands on the LL for maintenance, then the LL has done well.  After 4.5 years, the property is going to need a bit of a spruce up to secure best potential from the next tenant.  A reasonable LL would simply return all the deposit, whether a bit of cleaning is required or not.

This annoys me. There should be no 'be grateful that you haven't been ripped off'.
In the end, either the house was left to the same standard or not and if not, that's what the deposit is for.

The LL will have to evidence that cleaning was required. If they issue an invoice from a reputable agency and they are oy claiming for this, they have a good chance to win as who would be crazy enough to bother with such an arrangement with no benefit at all to them. 
My previous tenant also claimed they'd left the house in a good standard of cleanliness. It was matter if difference in standards. There was accumulated dust everywhere, clearly the place had never been dusted, the oven and extractor fan were clogged with grease, the cupboards not cleaned, the floor sticky etc.. The deposit agency agreed with me.

In your case OP, it could be that the people who saw it had no idea what it was like when you moved. Or th LL is a crook and pretending it get it professionally clean but intend to use a fake invoice. Make sure you ask for evidence and double check it.

saajan_12

fiwen30 said:

Spoke to a lovely advisor at Housing Advice NI this afternoon, who assured me that my responsibility as a tenant only extends to leaving the property in as good a condition as it was when I moved in, which I did. - yes 
It’s up to the landlord to provide proof that the house had been professionally cleaned before I moved in, and if this can’t be provided then the cost of professional cleaning shouldn’t be deducted from my deposit. - no. The LL needs to prove it was clean at the start AND it was not clean at the end. The cleanliness at the start could have been achieved by anyone, not necessarily a paid company. If they did get a professional clean at the start, that doesn't automatically entitle them to a professional clean at the end, if you left it clean. 

Forgot to ask whether or not I should be legally provided with a checkout inventory, so just waiting on hold to speak to someone again.- why? Why are you getting worked up asking all this, when you just need to wait. If you get proof of specific damages, that'll effectively be the relevant parts of the checkout inventory. If not, then you win anyway. 

They advised I contact LL again, stating that the property was cleaned to the same standard as when I moved in, and that I don’t agree that professional cleaning costs should be deducted from the deposit, and then go to the custodial scheme and request my deposit back myself. After that, any sort of dispute resolution will be done through the scheme. - again why with the back and forth? Just wait for them to send an itemised list of deductions, and then agree or dispute. If they don't sent it for a few weeks or if you dispute, then go to the deposit scheme and raise a dispute. Until then, no benefit in repeating your case. 

Still annoyed about the whole thing. After all the horror stories of ‘nightmare tenants’, you’d think a LL might be a bit more gracious at the end of a 4.5 year, honest, peaceful, reliable, tenancy. Hey ho. - why? A business relationship should be honest and peaceful. No prizes for reliably paying rent per your contract and no prizes for not getting into fights. They are just claiming for what they percieve to be valid damages because you weren't gracious enough at the end of a 4.5yr tenancy to leave it clean, in their opinion. 

My comments are based on the rules in England, so if they vary radically in NI on the above points then fine, but I'd be surprised. My advise is relax, wait for the list of deductions, if its not forthcoming or more than you think is correct, then contact the LL at that point. If you can't resolve it, then file a dispute with the deposit scheme. 

No need to get into the play by play of the checkout (you have no right to one) or who should have been more gracious.