Economy 10

Energy28

Hello
I have a question about my current electricity set up. I have econony 10 and an electric only house as the town I live does not have gas.
In a normal month without any heating my electricity bill is about £70 per month. I use the washer, dryer if the weather is rubbish and dishwasher during the off peak times @11p per KW. 
I can only therefore assume that this amount is for general lights and sockets and the 10 hours off peak my water is heated. I don't have a shower and no boost buttons. 
My question is about whether I should (and is it possible to) put a timer on the water cylinder. Does the cylinder use electric all the time during the  off peak or just switches on and off to get it to the required temp ... like a top up? 
Apart from and sink of water in the morning, the 5 hours I get of off peak water heating at night, has no other use... can I have a timer that uses just 2 hours of this and would that he enough to warm the water tank up?  The afternoon 3 hours is useful for warm water when we get home at tea time, but could this be reduced to sat 1.5 hours on a timer, and the evening water 2 hours is very useful for baths etc.
Is anyone able to explain to me if my idea is workable or a more expensive option? 
Thanks

Gerry1

Welcome to the forum.

You can certainly use a timer to control an immersion heater, but not all offer two separate periods.  Avoid cheap motorised ones that can be thrown out of kilter by power cuts.  Look at Horstmann.

However, E10 is being phased out and will become prohibitively expensive, so you should be thinking of switching to Economy 7 (or LPG or oil, if feasible).  You probably can't switch suppliers on E10, but with E7 you can have the supplier of your choice.

However, you do need to understand exactly how your existing system works to make sure there aren't any unwelcome surprises, especially if you have storage heaters.  Don't make any assumptions !  In particular you need to find out

• The exact off peak times. Watch the register switch over.

• Whether any circuits are switched by the meter, e.g. storage and immersion heaters.  If there are no indicator lights, you may need to leave them switched off until the NSHs and tank are cool and see whether they heat up soon after being switched on again at peak rate time.

• If you have old storage heaters that are under dimensioned they may become cool in the evening because E7 won't have  the afternoon top up.  You may need to add another NSH or two or update to modern fan assisted ones.

There are lots of existing threads on the forum.  Search for terms such as E10, Economy 10, THTC, White Meter and "Comfort Plus White Meter (and similar DTS experiences)".

Don't think of monthly DD amounts, always compare annual costs based on annual kWh usage derived from actual meter readings.

matelodave

The main thing is to ensure that the tank is only heated during off-peak times and avoid using the boost switch which will use peak rate energy
If your tank has a thermostat (which it should have) then TBH it doesn't really matter whether the tank is switched on for the whole five hours or even three hour off peak periods, because it will only use as much energy as it requires to heat the tank and then it will switch off. A decently insulated tank shouldn't lose more than around 1.5-2kwh a day. 

If your off-peak rate is 11p how much are you paying for peak rates - I only pay 12p for all my leccy

As Gerry suggest you will probably get better deals on E7 but be aware that you only get seven hours off-peak, during the night all the rest is at peak rates. Seven hours ovenight may not be enough if your heating and hot water have been sized to take advantage of the afternoon and evening boosts that you get with E10.
You need to do some investigation to ensure that you don't have to use peak rate leccy to supplement your heating during the afternoons and evenings.

And stop just looking at £££'s, you cannot do proper comparisons unless you use kwh and work out how much peak and off peak you use - once you have that info you can investigate costs

Energy28

Thank you Gerey1 and Matelodave, you have explained that really well. I'm a mid terrace so oil is not so easy to have access sadly. I pay 11.38p offpeak and 19.22p for peak rate. 
I'm with EON and they have recently swapped my 25 year old meter to a new economy 10 meter, they"ve never mentioned it being phased out.
I have heard that the new storage heaters keep the heat better for longer than the old ones I have. Maybe theyd be ok with E7... what do you think? 
I looked at those hot water/boiling taps as an option for the kitchen ... but without a water heating option during the day, I'm not sure how I'd manage.
Are there any other electric options that are cost effective? 
Thanks for your help.
 

danrv

Energy28 said:

I pay 11.38p offpeak and 19.22p for peak rate. 
I have heard that the new storage heaters keep the heat better for longer than the old ones I have. Maybe theyd be ok with E7... what do you think? 

I have Economy 10, electric only house and heating that’s in dire need of updating.
I always turn on my immersion heater during off peak hours. No timer but I would like to fit one.
As mentioned, it’s important to know the times slots for the manual water heating. I assume your storage heaters are switched in to the E10 circuit. If so, they will only charge using off peak electricity.

I contacted Eon about my E10 times but also checked the switch over on the meter.
Rates are 12.969p off peak and 20.408 peak but the cheap rate time is in one ten hour block.
Yes, modern storage heaters tend to have better heat retention than the older ones. Dimplex Quantum are the best for this and are designed for Economy 7.  
They hold heat in and then release it gently via a quiet fan.

Gerry1

Think of old NSHs as hot water bottles and new ones as thermos flasks.  Both Energy28's and danrv's rates are dire: cheap rate is about the same as a good single rate, and the day rate is prohibitive.

You may wish to limit the NSH hours to seven hours a day for a week or so to see how they would perform on E7; you may not be able to revert to E10.

Restricted Meter Good Practice Guide.pdf

I'm not a fan of Quooker taps and don't have one.  TBH, they seem a gimmick for people with money than sense, and I'm told that tea doesn't taste so good because all the air has been boiled out from the water, but YMMV.  You just need a 24h circuit for it, so E7 would be fine.

Energy28

Thank you Gerry1 ... two last questions then: Who is your electricity provider; and, If new storage heaters have timers on them, could you get rid of E7/E10 and put the new SH's on a cheap standard tariff like the one you have, with them clicking on when the timer directs, rather than my expensive E7/E10 tariff?

Thanks again, for your explanations, I feel much more informed now.

Gerry1

I'm with Neon Reef on their variable tariff (12.11343p per kWh, Daily Charge 13.2825p inc VAT), but that's no longer available to new customers.  No phone number so may not be suitable for everyone, but I've had lightning fast answers to emails.

You can operate Dimplex Quantum on a single 24h supply, but you need to make absolutely sure it's shadowing the E7 times (beware of split times, e.g. 2230 - 0030 and 0230 - 0730).  Probably not cost effective to use immersion and NSHs on single rate (you might as well use convectors or fan heaters !), although you could consider switching to single rate in the summer if you don't have exit fees. You just need to do the sums based on your actual meter readings.

danrv

Gerry1 said:

Both Energy28's and danrv's rates are dire: cheap rate is about the same as a good single rate, and the day rate is prohibitive.

You may wish to limit the NSH hours to seven hours a day for a week or so to see how they would perform on E7; you may not be able to revert to E10.

Yes. I’ve made the bold move of switching off my warm air heater. Difference here is that don’t want to use it anymore. 
It stores a useful 73kwhr’s of heat on cheap rate but output is general rather than localised.
With individual NSH’s, maybe there would be a work around as they’re still in production but there’s no suitable wiring in place.
With E10 possibly being phased out and warm air storage heaters definitely phased out, I’m now looking at alternatives, of which there are few.

For the OP, a switch to an E7 meter to use with the current heaters would be a cheap way to go. Check the storage capacity of them though. As previously mentioned, they may be undersized for E7.
If so, modern E7 storage heaters can be had quite cheap.
Coming off the E10 tariff is the main thing though.

Gerry1

You may find that your new meter can easily be reprogrammed for E7.  It may also have a Boost button so that you can occasionally liven up the switched off peak circuits to get an hour or two's top up when needed, but of course that would be at expensive day rates.  However, that could be useful as a temporary measure if you switch to E7 and find it's chilly one evening because they've run out of oomph or too much hot water has been used.

To summarise, E7 and switching supplier is probably your best bet, as long as you are fully clued up about your existing equipment and wiring and recognise that you may have to make (and fund) some tweaks if the systems prove to be under dimensioned by today's standards.

Energy28

Thank you both, sounds like the best way forward, just the water to work out now.