Taking AmEx to Court

loveka

I have been advised by my solicitor to send a letter before action to American Express over a Section 75 claim I made 10 weeks ago that they have not responded to.
The claim was for £17,000 but the solicitor says we can limit the claim to £10,000 to keep it in the small claims track.
The thought of actually going up against Amex fills me with dread!
I will include the retailer in the court action, but I have no hope of getting any money from him, as he is a limited company with no assets at all - he's a builder.

The sticky part is that the payment processor was Stripe. The solicitor says there is no definitive view on this, but that in her experience credit card companies automatically decline Section 75 claims where Stripe is involved in the transaction. In our case the money went straight to American Express, Stripe just processed it. The retailer has a Stripe account to enable him to take credit cards.

I'm looking for any words of advice for taking a credit card company to court, or any experience in doing so. Thanks 

born_again

loveka said:

I have been advised by my solicitor to send a letter before action to American Express over a Section 75 claim I made 10 weeks ago that they have not responded to.
The claim was for £17,000 but the solicitor says we can limit the claim to £10,000 to keep it in the small claims track.
The thought of actually going up against Amex fills me with dread!
I will include the retailer in the court action, but I have no hope of getting any money from him, as he is a limited company with no assets at all - he's a builder.

The sticky part is that the payment processor was Stripe. The solicitor says there is no definitive view on this, but that in her experience credit card companies automatically decline Section 75 claims where Stripe is involved in the transaction. In our case the money went straight to American Express, Stripe just processed it. The retailer has a Stripe account to enable him to take credit cards.

I'm looking for any words of advice for taking a credit card company to court, or any experience in doing so. Thanks 

Have you tried phoning Amex about your claim.
This year has been a nightmare for ALL banks dealing with Disputes & S75 claims. Wait times are counted in months now & not weeks.
Things were bad before Covid with high profile airline collapses. Covid & everyone phoning their card providers to get holiday money back has only made it worse.
So rather than going straight down the court route, which will not be quick anyway.
Give them a call and find out your claim status.
Have you logged a complaint with Amex?

As a guide, there is not timescale for a S75 claim to be processed in once received. They take as long as they take.

Sandtree

A) Why are you asking a forum after paying a fully qualified solicitor?
Where did you find this “solicitor”?

By trying to get into into the small track of court this means almost no legal costs can be added by either side so you’d have to pay them out of your own pocket win or lose but if you lose the other side cannot add significant legal costs (that said Fast Track, which is the next tier up, are still significantly limited legal costs). For obvious reasons most solicitors have an interest in getting into higher tiers of the legal system as it gets them more money directly from the other side. Kind of says it all for what they think your prospects are.

Most of all, why are you going to court and risking fees when you have a right to complaint and escalation to the ombudsman for free if you don’t like AmEx’s reply (or if AmEx dont reply within 8 weeks)?

Using a middleman card processor like Stripe is a known issue and you may want to look at the likes of https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/files/290342/DRN9249134.pdf which considers the use of Stripe and makes reference to appeals made on similar court cases.

born_again

@Sandtree
If you look at the posters history. I think you will find at least 3 other threads on this matter. Starting 20 August at 9:07AM in Credit Cards If it is about what I think it is. If it is then the OP has had plenty of contact with them.

Not sure how good a solicitor as well, since advising to lose £7K

Sandtree

born_again said:

Not sure how good a solicitor as well, since advising to lose £7K

You may have noted the quote marks

loveka

The reason for keeping in the small claims is because we would need to use legal representation in the fast track. The solicitor is actually very reputable, and really warned me off the fast track saying we could run up £10k in legal costs. If AmEx win in the Stripe issue then we risk losing even more money!

JJ_Egan

(The solicitor is actually very reputable)

More so than random unqualified users of a forum ??

loveka

Sandtree said:

A) Why are you asking a forum after paying a fully qualified solicitor?
Where did you find this “solicitor”?

By trying to get into into the small track of court this means almost no legal costs can be added by either side so you’d have to pay them out of your own pocket win or lose but if you lose the other side cannot add significant legal costs (that said Fast Track, which is the next tier up, are still significantly limited legal costs). For obvious reasons most solicitors have an interest in getting into higher tiers of the legal system as it gets them more money directly from the other side. Kind of says it all for what they think your prospects are.

Most of all, why are you going to court and risking fees when you have a right to complaint and escalation to the ombudsman for free if you don’t like AmEx’s reply (or if AmEx dont reply within 8 weeks)?

Using a middleman card processor like Stripe is a known issue and you may want to look at the likes of https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/files/290342/DRN9249134.pdf which considers the use of Stripe and makes reference to appeals made on similar court cases.

Well, you say that, but I have spoken to 3 solicitors, all consumer specialists, who have clearly not read that link you provided. Where did you find that? It is the most useful thing I have seen. It is EXACTLY my situation. I have spoken to Which? and Citizens Advice, I have phoned the Ombudsman and I have even spoken to Stripe. Am Ex won't talk to me.

I was asking a forum as I wanted people's experiences of doing this, rather than solicitors advice. And I'm very glad I did.

Sandtree

loveka said:

Sandtree said:

A) Why are you asking a forum after paying a fully qualified solicitor?
Where did you find this “solicitor”?

By trying to get into into the small track of court this means almost no legal costs can be added by either side so you’d have to pay them out of your own pocket win or lose but if you lose the other side cannot add significant legal costs (that said Fast Track, which is the next tier up, are still significantly limited legal costs). For obvious reasons most solicitors have an interest in getting into higher tiers of the legal system as it gets them more money directly from the other side. Kind of says it all for what they think your prospects are.

Most of all, why are you going to court and risking fees when you have a right to complaint and escalation to the ombudsman for free if you don’t like AmEx’s reply (or if AmEx dont reply within 8 weeks)?

Using a middleman card processor like Stripe is a known issue and you may want to look at the likes of https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/files/290342/DRN9249134.pdf which considers the use of Stripe and makes reference to appeals made on similar court cases.

Well, you say that, but I have spoken to 3 solicitors, all consumer specialists, who have clearly not read that link you provided. Where did you find that? It is the most useful thing I have seen. It is EXACTLY my situation. I have spoken to Which? and Citizens Advice, I have phoned the Ombudsman and I have even spoken to Stripe. Am Ex won't talk to me.

I was asking a forum as I wanted people's experiences of doing this, rather than solicitors advice. And I'm very glad I did.

Whilst I understand the concerns of others...

Any decision by an ombudsman (not the first level staff that give the initial decision) is published on the FOS website so can be searched. Decision don’t set precedent though so you can find conflicting outcomes at times. 

The ombudsman is held to different standards than judges in courts; they have to consider fairness and not just the law hence the linked decision talks of evolving thinking even if the law has stood still. You’ve therefore a better chance with the Ombudsman than the court.

There is no requirement to use a lawyer in the Fast Track, though it’s anticipated many will as fixed costs kick in. Only if you get allocated to Multi Track and a High Court do things get more complex 

loveka

Thankyou. Yes, the solicitor told me all that. I know I am in a better chance with the Ombundsman, it is slightly complicated by the fact that the builder is threatening court action which would mean that the Ombudsman may not consider it. Hence, I think, why the Letter Before Action to Amex was suggested, to try and hurry the decision along.

I tried to search Ombudsman decisions- I think I must have searched in the wrong place. I have read all their newsletters. That link you provided really is so helpful. When I contacted Stripe they copy and pasted Martin Lewis's article from this website! Even Which? have no knowledge of that Ombundman decision.

I posted again because in my mind it was a different question about taking Am Ex to court. It still terrifies me, and I just wanted to hear it anyone had actually done it.

What this has taught me more than anything is that even in a cut and dried case like this ( both solicitors- one who I couldn't afford hence the change- say we would win in court) actually getting financial redress is the problem. The builder has no assets so whatever  track the case ends up in we won't get anything from him. So I guess Am Ex is my only hope in court, which takes me back to being afraid of doing that.

Sandtree

What is the builder threatening action over? You say your losses are £17k so presumably you’ve already paid them?

Until the courts are involved you are free to use the ombudsman so the threats suggest a need to get a wiggle on rather than to delay. Even if it was litigated then it may still be possible due to the different parties involved.

I wouldn’t trust “solicitors” who say you will win easily but go for a lower track in the court... higher track means the other side starts paying their costs so the advice either doesnt add up or is a clear breach of their duty of care (or the other conclusions that other regulars will come to). Your chances in court are much lower because of the use of Stripe and the fact the CCA hasnt been updated to consider Stripe, iZettle etc and thats before you get to the actual question of if there is any liability on the merchant.