New Driveway Worries

guitarbloke

So a local driveway fitter was in the street last Wednesday, laying new drives for a couple of neighbours, he knocked on the door and offered a discount if we had our done as well.  His work looked decent enough and it was a job we were looking to do anyway, so I said yes.

Long story short, it's all done now, but they haven't put kiln dried sand on it yet.  It's been raining a bit this week so they have been waiting for a dry day.  They are now saying they'll deliver the sand to me and I can brush it in myself and save them coming back.  Part of me is thinking it's only sand I might as well, and the other half of me is thinking, if I'm paying you £4000+, why should I brush the sand myself.  

However, I've also seen various articles online saying that once the sand is down, the drive needs to be compacted with a whacker plate or compressor - obviously that's not something I can do myself.  Is that absolutely necessary?  Should I stand my ground and make him apply the sand or am I being petty?  

He's coming round today because he wants me to pay him, but I'm reluctant to do so because of this sand business.  Overall I feel I'd rather the driveway installer finished installing my driveway, I don't want to be responsible if it's not done properly.  Plus he may use that as a get-out if I ever need to invoke the 5 year guarantee for any reason "oh well, the sand wasn't applied properly" or "we didn't actually complete the work ourselves so that's not our responsibility".

Alfrescodave

You say that he's a "local" driveway fitter then there should be no problem with him returning to finish the job especially as he has to bring the sand. Todays payment should only be a part payment with remainder on completion of job.

Alter_ego

Tell him to send his invoice when the job is completed.

guitarbloke

Alfrescodave said:

You say that he's a "local" driveway fitter then there should be no problem with him returning to finish the job especially as he has to bring the sand. Todays payment should only be a part payment with remainder on completion of job.

Thank you - that's pretty much what I've been feeling, so I'm glad I'm not being petty! 
I'll give him 50% today and the rest on completion.

Jeepers_Creepers

GB, you are a 'layman' - albeit a guitar player... - so should not be expected to know what the correct process of laying a block driveway is.

Don't enter into any discussion or negotiation over this, should he claim "It's easy..." or anything else - use the 'ignorant layman' clause; you know only what you have read. And what you have read is; "Kiln dried sand is used to lock individual paving blocks together. By doing this you stabilize and strengthen the paving block structure. The sand and the paving joints must be dry to allow the sand to fully fill up the joints. This way you get maximum strength when it is compacted with a compactor plate. If the sand is wet the block pavers will not lock together."

https://www.paving.org/index.php/kiln-dried-sand/#:~:text=Kiln dried sand is very,from moving and becoming loose.

So, when your new drive is bone dry, the guy comes back and pours on kiln-dried sand, brushes it in and compacts the whole area down. Then he brushes away the excess leaving the drive looking amazing... Then you pay him.

You may consider it reasonable to pay him a proportion to cover the materials used - say half - until then.

The other neighbs who have also had their drives done, what is the situation with them?

Hopefully the actual job he's done is decent, but for him to think it's reasonable to ask a customer to complete the job does worry me. It's not only that you don't have a compactor in your shed, but the conditions seemingly have to be completely dry for this sand to do its job. If the blocks are damp, the sand will likely stick on the way down and simply cannot fill and compact itself against the block sides.

guitarbloke

Jeepers_Creepers said:

GB, you are a 'layman' - albeit a guitar player... - so should not be expected to know what the correct process of laying a block driveway is.

Don't enter into any discussion or negotiation over this, should he claim "It's easy..." or anything else - use the 'ignorant layman' clause; you know only what you have read. And what you have read is; "Kiln dried sand is used to lock individual paving blocks together. By doing this you stabilize and strengthen the paving block structure. The sand and the paving joints must be dry to allow the sand to fully fill up the joints. This way you get maximum strength when it is compacted with a compactor plate. If the sand is wet the block pavers will not lock together."

https://www.paving.org/index.php/kiln-dried-sand/#:~:text=Kiln dried sand is very,from moving and becoming loose.

So, when your new drive is bone dry, the guy comes back and pours on kiln-dried sand, brushes it in and compacts the whole area down. Then he brushes away the excess leaving the drive looking amazing... Then you pay him.

You may consider it reasonable to pay him a proportion to cover the materials used - say half - until then.

The other neighbs who have also had their drives done, what is the situation with them?

Thanks Jeepers!  That's really helpful!!

You're quite right, I don't have the first clue about laying a driveway and his company are the experts.  He did try and palm me off with "it's easy..." on the phone last night, but I think he could tell I wasn't comfortable with the situation, so when he comes round today I'll tell him what I've read  

The other neighbours drives were finished before mine - they were more fortunate however, and had theirs done during a few days of dry weather last week.

I'll give him half today and the other half on completion - I'm relatively happy so far (a few minor grumbles, but nothing he was interested in remedying), so I think half is fair until it's fully complete.

That' really handy to know about the sand - it's been raining heavily on and off for the past few days so I imagine it'll take at least a few days - maybe more! - to dry out fully.

TELLIT01

To be blunt, you have been very fortunate to have apparently had a decent job done by a random 'door knocker'.  It is concerning that he doesn't seem interested in putting right the issues have raised with him.  If you don't retain part of the payment I suspect it will be a long time before he returns to complete the work.  You do need to stress that for the job to be done properly the sand needs to be brushed in when the blocks are fully dry, not just dry on the surface.

Jeepers_Creepers

Cool. I fear it'll be some time before conditions are good enough for this sandy stage.

If he tries to do this job when it's damp, you know what to say.

And please be 100% certain you are happy with the whole job before you hand over 100% of the money :-)

(This guy is legit, isn't he? A known trader in the area? Website? Facebook profile? etc).

guitarbloke

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Cool. I fear it'll be some time before conditions are good enough for this sandy stage.

If he tries to do this job when it's damp, you know what to say.

And please be 100% certain you are happy with the whole job before you hand over 100% of the money :-)

(This guy is legit, isn't he? A known trader in the area? Website? Facebook profile? etc).

Hmmm, looking at the weather forecast it doesn't look promising...  :-( 

He seems to be legit - there's a website and facebook page - 
http://www.spdevelopmentsuk.com/   and   https://www.facebook.com/SPDImproveyourhome/  - his facebook reviews are good.

The concerns I had were probably minor in the grand scheme of things - I had wanted to know what he would be doing about drainage and he said it wasn't necessary because my DPC is (apparently) high, and because the driveway doesn't run towards the house.  I made the point of double-checking with him a few times to be certain. I think he got annoyed with me asking in the end!

The other thing was, he made a big deal about how we'd be given the option of what pattern the bricks were laid in, but when it came down to it, they just went ahead and laid them without asking.  It's not the end of the world, and it looks alright I guess, but I would have preferred a different pattern.  When I mentioned it he just shrugged it off saying "well, it still looks nice though" - that got my back up a little but I bit my tongue, because they were about 80% done and I didn't want anything untoward happening at that late stage.

Oh and then there's the matter of a very small area (perhaps 8 square inches) near the front door which we had discussed would also be done, and which hasn't been.  I only noticed that last night so I'll be bringing that up with him today. 

So yeah, minor annoyances really.

greatcrested

I'm always suspicious when someone knocks on the door with a story like this.

Are you sure he's local, or is that what he told you? Do you have his business address?

And £4K sounds a lot unless it's a very long drie.

As for the quality of the other work, it may look good, but will it last? What foundation was put under the block paving? Not much needed for a footpath, but with cars on top it could prove problematic in 6 months if not done properly....

As for your question I agree with others. Max 50% now, the balance on completion. Or better still, a retainer (£500?) in 3 or 6 months if all is still well but he won't like that one bit!

guitarbloke

Well, he's out there right now, compacting the drive without having put the sand down...  

He has brought sand with him though - I guess maybe he'll do that next and then compact it again...?  Or perhaps he intends to ask me once more to do it myself - which I won't be doing!!