Vendor won't negotiate on price

hannahn90

Hi everyone, 

I'm new here and a FTB. Just got a survey back on a 1930s converted ground floor maisonette and there were only ambers and reds, no greens which concerned me.
Two of the reds I am most concerned about are all the downpipes needing to be replaced with plastic and damp found in the smaller bedroom and towards the back of the property.

Notes from the surveyor:
"The rainwater goods are made up of metal gutters and downpipes and are shared with the adjoining property. Evidence of staining was noted to some gutter and downpipe joints suggesting localised leakage. General resealing and realignment of joints should be anticipated during routine maintenance. Where downpipes discharge into gulleys then these should be kept clear and in good repair to assist with rainwater disposal and to reduce the likelihood of dampness affecting the property. Corrosion and general deterioration was noted to the metal rainwater goods which are now considered to be beyond economic repair and which should ideally be replaced with new plastic sections. Typically, for their age the cast iron rainwater goods are likely to be corroded and may have a limited life and need to be replaced. Metal rainwater goods should be checked for security of their fixings. It is important that rainwater goods are always well maintained as any leaks or spillages, if not dealt with, can cause deterioration and damage to the outer surfaces of the property and decay to joinery."

"Tests were taken with a moisture meter at regular intervals in a structured methodical manner to internal wall surfaces. The readings obtained indicate that rising and / or penetrating dampness is present to the internal walls, for example to the outer walls of the small bedroom. As a result of the damp identified in the walls of the property, it is recommended that you should arrange for the timber floors and underlying joists to be fully exposed in order that their condition and need for remedial works can be determined prior to purchase. "

I asked the vendor to negotiate on price in light of the survey but they have refused, stating they have another buyer lined up who is offering more. I'm wondering how much these two works in particular might cost and whether I am being unreasonable asking for a price reduction.

Thank you!

moneysavinghero

You don't want to offer what the seller is asking. Move on and find somewhere else. Whether you are being reasonable or not is not really that relevant.

A 1930's property is never going to be all greens, always going to need work doing on it. The vendor probably believes that this has all been priced in already.

Would the downpipes even be your responsibility?

searchlight123

you can ask but if they have another buyer lined up for the same or more money then i'm sure they will just go with them. did the valuation, taking into account the survey, down value the property by much if anything at all?

RelievedSheff

You can't force them to lower their price. You either buy for the agreed price or walk away.

No 1930's property is ever going to be all fine and dandy on a survey. 1930's houses are 90 years old now. They are all going to have some faults and repairs required.

bravotango

I don't know what the price of the property is, but offer what you are prepared to pay for it in light of the situation where there may be issues.

In a world where everything is still very up in the air, find somewhere else.

As a former FTB, I bought my first property a few months ago in London where property prices are shockingly high, and you just have to grin and bear it if the vendor says no to any form of negotiation. Just move on.

TBagpuss

You can ask, but the vendors are not under any obligation to reduce the price. They may well take the view that the fact that the guttering and downpipes are old is something which is obvious on looking at the property so it's not reasonable to seek to reduce the price .

Your options are either to proceed on the basis of the price you originally agreed, and plan to replace the guttering in the next 12 months or so, or to walk away. What's available in your price range in the area? If you walk away, will you be able to find a different property for the same sort of price? Do you think that the cost of fixing these issues is likely to be a lot more than the additional costs you will incur if you pull out? (second set of searches, legal and surveyors fees, plus however much extra rent you pay while you keep looking, plus stamp duty if you don't complete before the end of March) 

 As it is a maisonette,. It's worth checking with your solicitor whether the deeds set out who is responsible for the gutters and downpipes. You may need to come to an agreement with the other owners, or you may find that it is their responsibility.
However, Replacing guttering isn't normally a massive job - cost will depend on whether scaffolding is needed, and whether you also fit / replace fascia boards but it is not a huge job.

The damp is potentially a bigger issue but may or may not be a major concerns. Is the damp localized to where the gutters are leaking? Was there any visible damp or mould when you viewed the house (or suspicious new decoration?) 
Is the small bedroom they mention one which is currently in use? Damp might be due to insufficient ventilation or might be an issue if the room isn't used and isn't heated. 

A 90 year old house is always going to have some issues and will need maintenance.

AlexMac

Don't walk away.  These are not deal breakers.  Bagpuss is spot on, but I'd be even more optimistic; original 90-year old metal gutters are likely to drip a bit, but the only way to check is to visit in the rain and see how bad it actually is.  They could last another 2 years or another 30 years; but replacemnt is no big deal. a few hundred quid or more. They'll almost inevitably be a freeholder rsponsibility with costs shared by the (two- more?) leaseholders, so a question to ask is who the freeholder is?   "Shared"? Absentee?   Either way if work is done, it will likely be at the leaseholders shared cost, so unless the freeholder and/or other shared freeholders (your neighbours ) agree it's needed, it won't get done.  And if the leak is trivial, they might just say live with it?

As as above; google and read up about damp in older houses.  It can only be from about 3-4 causes
- poor ventilation/inadequate heating leading to "condensation" on cool surfaces ; 
- "penetration" from leaky gutters of by rain beating against degraded walls (or internal leaks);
- "rising" from the ground or because of earth piled up against outside walls which can "bridge" the damp proof course 
and although damp proofing sales staff will try to con you into injected DPCs or complete internal re-plastering to 1metre height, it is unlikey to cause rot in the timbers of the subfloor (the joists which the florboards sit on) unless it's severe or there is no ventilation to the hollow space below via air bricks.  And if it's severe, it will show or smell.

both of my last two period houses had minor damp; and the in the last, slightly more severe case, the lease confirmed that structural damp was a shared cost.  But as it was, actually down to a leaky gutter, we simply fixed that at around £100, and the wall dried out...

So chill (or rather;  stop dripping, then just heat and ventilate)

greatcrested

As above.

Responsibility for gutters/downpipes may be yours, the other maisonette's, or shared. But either way, it'snot a major job. Just consider it part of buying a 90 year old property. As a seller I'd not negotiate on the basis of this.

The damp? depends on the cause.My immediate guess is that i's caused by the gutter/downpipe issue! Rain overflows the gutters or from the downpipe, the wall gets wet, and you get internalpenetrating damp. Fix the gutters etc and the dampwill dry out. Again, no justification for price negotiation.

Of course there may be a different cause eg external ground leval breaching the damp proof course, but you'd need to ask the surveyor.....

Whether there are other reasos in your mind for not wanting to pay the price agreed I don't know, but negotiation depends on one side or the other being willing to give way.

End of the day, how badly doyou want this property?

Unicorn_cottage

I would question why the surveyor is suggesting that you replace with plastic? If just the odd section is damaged then is best to replace like for like rather than doing a bodge job. As others have said the rainwater goods may or may not be you responsibility. I would ask the current owner what the current arrangement is for dealing with such issues and why this hasn't already been addressed? I would not want to be haggling with other owners about getting this work down. Another thing to remember is that whilst rainwater goods may not be expensive, scaffolding definitely is so I would add that into the equation.

Unicorn_cottage

Also Surveyors often use damp meters but they are totally inappropriate...
https://www.heritage-house.org/damp-and-condensation/the-ping-prong-meter-guilty-of-fraud.html

hannahn90

moneysavinghero said:

Would the downpipes even be your responsibility?

I am still waiting for my solicitor to get back to me on this. The lease is so obscure and hard to read. From what I gather, it is mine and the upstairs' flat responsibility. 

TBagpuss said:

 As it is a maisonette,. It's worth checking with your solicitor whether the deeds set out who is responsible for the gutters and downpipes. You may need to come to an agreement with the other owners, or you may find that it is their responsibility.
However, Replacing guttering isn't normally a massive job - cost will depend on whether scaffolding is needed, and whether you also fit / replace fascia boards but it is not a huge job.

The damp is potentially a bigger issue but may or may not be a major concerns. Is the damp localized to where the gutters are leaking? Was there any visible damp or mould when you viewed the house (or suspicious new decoration?) 
Is the small bedroom they mention one which is currently in use? Damp might be due to insufficient ventilation or might be an issue if the room isn't used and isn't heated. 

A 90 year old house is always going to have some issues and will need maintenance.

These are really useful points. I am currently waiting for solicitor to get back to me regarding responsibilities. The damp is issue seems to be mainly in one room. Damp wasn't visible at all when we went to view it. A damp specialist mentioned on the phone that it's probably moisture in the air as the property has been vacant for a while. 

AlexMac said:

Don't walk away.  These are not deal breakers.  Bagpuss is spot on, but I'd be even more optimistic; original 90-year old metal gutters are likely to drip a bit, but the only way to check is to visit in the rain and see how bad it actually is.  They could last another 2 years or another 30 years; but replacemnt is no big deal. a few hundred quid or more. They'll almost inevitably be a freeholder rsponsibility with costs shared by the (two- more?) leaseholders, so a question to ask is who the freeholder is?   "Shared"? Absentee?   Either way if work is done, it will likely be at the leaseholders shared cost, so unless the freeholder and/or other shared freeholders (your neighbours ) agree it's needed, it won't get done.  And if the leak is trivial, they might just say live with it?

As as above; google and read up about damp in older houses.  It can only be from about 3-4 causes
- poor ventilation/inadequate heating leading to "condensation" on cool surfaces ; 
- "penetration" from leaky gutters of by rain beating against degraded walls (or internal leaks);
- "rising" from the ground or because of earth piled up against outside walls which can "bridge" the damp proof course 
and although damp proofing sales staff will try to con you into injected DPCs or complete internal re-plastering to 1metre height, it is unlikey to cause rot in the timbers of the subfloor (the joists which the florboards sit on) unless it's severe or there is no ventilation to the hollow space below via air bricks.  And if it's severe, it will show or smell.

both of my last two period houses had minor damp; and the in the last, slightly more severe case, the lease confirmed that structural damp was a shared cost.  But as it was, actually down to a leaky gutter, we simply fixed that at around £100, and the wall dried out...

So chill (or rather;  stop dripping, then just heat and ventilate)

This is what I've been wondering – are those issues really a deal breaker in terms of cost?... You've kind of helped me answer that so thank you!