Tenant seeking help with boiler problems

_kitkat

Hi,

I wonder if anyone could please help - tenant in a bit of a frustrating situation here...

I moved into a privately rented first floor studio flat about a month ago (I am the only tenant living in the flat), and not long after moving in, I noticed there was a lot of water dripping inside and underneath the boiler (which is located in the main living room/bedroom area of the flat). I'm no expert, just a tenant, but obviously it's a concern seeing a considerable amount of water near electrical components, so I informed the landlord (the landlord manages the property, not the agency).

Because I currently work from home due to the pandemic, it's not really practical for me to stay in the flat while work is carried out for longer than an hour or so (for one thing, it's too small to socially distance, also they might need to shut off the electricity etc.). At that point, luckily I still had access to my previous rented flat for another week or so, which still had Internet, heating etc. (because the tenancy hadn't quite finished and my old flatmate was still there) so I had somewhere to sleep, work etc. while maintenance work was carried out. Landlord arranged for work to be done while I was gone, apparently a new boiler was advised and this was fitted, and I returned to the new flat once the work was complete - all fine so far.

However not long afterwards, the same problem seemed to be happening every time it rained outside (the heavier the rain, the worse the dripping/flooding in and around the boiler) and I guessed that rain water was probably coming in through the boiler flue, which goes outside through the wall. A quick Google suggests this is quite a common problem and the flue and and/or sealant around the flue needs amending. The landlord arranged for another engineer to visit, but as it wasn't raining at the time/hadn't rained for a couple of days prior to the visit, there was no water/dripping/leaking visible, so he reported back that the boiler seems fine (which it is for the moment, as the fault doesn't seem to be with the boiler itself, but I'm worried that the longer this goes on, the new boiler may become damaged and/or hazardous). 

There have since been a few more visits/phone calls from engineers, but no one seems to be suggesting a fix for the actual problem of how the rain is getting inside in the first place - the chap who installed the boiler keeps insisting the boiler is fine and it's a building/structural issue, but the builder who visited is saying it's a boiler issue. In the meantime, I'm freaking out every time it rains/worrying about having to miss work while various contractors visit the flat.

I suppose all I can do is keep chasing the landlord, but it's increasingly stressful and frustrating to constantly send photos and video of the problem and have to explain again and again what I *think* is happening, and it feels as if something is getting lost in communication between me, the landlord, and the contractors (it doesn't help that trying to explain/point out  the problem to contractors while wearing a mask/distancing isn't that easy). I'm tempted to just book a Gas Safe qualified engineer visit out of my own pocket and deduct this from my rent, but I suspect this would be a violation of my tenancy contract.

On another (but related) note, I have yet to see a gas Safety Certificate for the new boiler - I've asked the landlord (we communicate via text) and they keep saying they'll email it as soon as they have it, but they haven't sent it yet, and I don't know if it's worth me chasing on this while the boiler potentially may need repairs anyway. There was a certificate when I moved in, but that was for the old boiler. 

Sorry for the long first post - I just feel very stressed and frustrated (there have been numerous other problems with this flat since moving in) so would greatly appreciate any advice. Thanks!

theoretica

If the gas person says it is a building issue, and the builder says it is a gas issue it seems what is needed is a person with experience of both - which many people who do boiler installations should have.  Whether you or the landlord get someone in, describing the problem before hand and asking if they think they can handle it whichever way it goes would be worth trying.  Also taking photos/videos of the leak if you haven't.

briclegg

I would just keep chasing the landlord and stating that the problem is still occurring ,if possible put this in writing or email as then you have something in writing .Also as regarding the  gas Safety Certificate for the new boiler i would assume that this goes to the landlord not you the tenant as it is his property.You could though ask for a copy

_kitkat

Thanks both for your replies.

Re: photos and videos, I have sent multiple instances of both to the landlord showing the problem. All of our conversations are over WhatsApp, so there's a record of everything on there, although a friend did advise that I should also make a backup of the chat and log the times/dates of everything (as the problem has been going on for over a month now).

Re: the Gas Safety Certificate - yes, I just want to see a copy so that I know the work was done by a qualified engineer (the agency emailed me a copy prior to me moving in, but as mentioned, that check was carried out back in June on the old boiler, so presumably is no longer valid). As it stands, I have no way of knowing whether the engineers they're using are even qualified (I've asked for certification/their ID numbers so I can check online, but with all the other questions flying around over the WhatsApp conversation, I haven't yet had an answer). I know it's a legal requirement for rental properties to have a valid GSC, so hopefully this is something the agency can help back me up on if I still don't hear anything. 

I don't know if I have the right to book an engineer myself - the agency have been clear from the outset that any maintenance issues need to be reported and managed through the landlord - so it's then up to the landlord to choose who they book. I fully trust that the landlord has good intentions, they've been responsive (and obviously it's in their interests to avoid damage to the property), but this means that I have no way of knowing the qualifications or expertise of anyone they send over. I also don't know what level of detail about the problem that the landlord has passed on, or if they're sending over the videos/photos etc. as there seems to be some confusion about the cause of the issue, which means that the problem just drags on.

I'm trying to be a good tenant, and obviously the complications caused by COVID and working from home etc. aren't anybody's fault, but the whole situation means I can't really relax or just enjoy living here until it's fixed.

nofoollikeold

1. I'd suggest you write formally to the landlord, setting out the conversations you have had on what dates and at what times.  Also restate the issues.  Send it in the post and get proof of postage.  Then, if anything goes wrong, you are in the clear.
2. The gas safety certificate used to come in three parts, one for the tenant (green), one for the landlord (white) and one for the engineer (yellow), and if paper is used, it still comes like that.  However, some now use a digital version, which, like all technological advances, takes longer to arrive.  However, it shouldn't be more than a day or two.
3. I wouldn't book an engineer if I were you, unless you want to end up paying for it.  It is the landlord's responsibility.  You might, in the above letter, point out that continued interruptions, particularly in the current situation, are spoiling the enjoyment of the property for which you are paying.  You might suggest the landlord gets an inspection done by the boiler manufacturers to confirm whether or not it has been properly installed.  
4. The boiler should have been installed with the flue sloping gently downwards from outside into the boiler.  This allows any water in the combustion gases part of the flue (the inner tube) to run back into the boiler, from where they are drained away with the condensate pipe.  If water gets into the air intake part of the flue (the space between inner tube and outer case) it will drip inside the boiler.  Also, if the gap between the flue and the outside wall has not been sealed, water my get inside the building, but should not get inside the boiler.
5. A photograph of the boiler, particularly showing the pipes underneath, might suggest whether the condensate pipe has been correctly connected.  

_kitkat

Thanks, nofoollikeold!

The landlord has now sent me a copy of the GSC for the new boiler (an electronic PDF copy), carried out the day after installation, and I've checked the engineer's Gas Safe number online and all looks legit, so that's done at least. I was maybe being a bit paranoid, but as the tenant it's really out of your hands (especially as I wasn't actually there when the work was carried out) so no harm in checking.

I'm fairly certain the water is rain water, not just condensation, as the problem only happens when it rains (the heavier the rainfall, the louder/more consistent the dripping sounds and visible leaking water). As a layperson's guess I would assume the issue is maybe with the gap between the flue and the outside wall - I can see the outside bit of the flue pipe through my window, but as I'm on the first floor, I can't get close enough to measure the angle (looks roughly horizontal, but hard to tell if there's a slight incline either way). I can't see if the water's getting inside the boiler for sure without opening it up, which I'm not going to do, but it certainly sounds like it from the persistent internal dripping noises every time it rains.

I've asked if the landlord can send someone else over, as the gas engineer who did the installation seems insistent that there's nothing wrong with the boiler and doesn't want to come out again. I'm hoping that as long as someone else can verify the problem there shouldn't be a need for any long running disputes, and I'll be able to sleep at night without worrying every time it rains! My sense of urgency is as much for the landlord's sake as it is for mine - if there is any kind of internal damage it would be awful if they had to pay for yet another boiler in a sort space of time.

nofoollikeold

1. The condensate I referred to is generated by the boiler as part of the condensation of the flue gases.  It is not the sort of condensation you get on the outside of a cold beer!  
2. You could try getting an old, dirty, copper coin and immersing it in the problem water.  If it comes out clean after half a day, the fluid is likely to be boiler condensate.  If no change, likely to be rain water from outside.
3. As a plumber and a landlord, I applaud your concern for the landlord's property.  However, I would still urge you to put it all in writing.
4. If I were the landlord I would want to know the real cause, and would if necessary employ a different heating engineer and a builder to report on the situation so that it could be addressed before costing me even more money.  

greatcrested

Any repairing issues, especially when not being resolved, should be reported formally to the landlord. That means in writing, to the address provided by law "for serving notices on the landlord". That address may be his home, c/o his letting agent, or indeed his mum (provided the address is in Eng/Wales), but that is where/how you write.

It is the LL's responsibility to resolve the matter in a 'reasonable' timeframe, so your letter should ask for what action he intends to take, and when.

See also

Post 2: Repairing Obligations: the law, common misconceptions, reporting/enforcing, retaliatory eviction & the new tenant protection (2015) plus the Homes (Fitness for Human Habitation) Act 2018

Jeepers_Creepers

_kitkat said:

Thanks, nofoollikeold!

The landlord has now sent me a copy of the GSC for the new boiler (an electronic PDF copy), carried out the day after installation, and I've checked the engineer's Gas Safe number online and all looks legit, so that's done at least. I was maybe being a bit paranoid, but as the tenant it's really out of your hands (especially as I wasn't actually there when the work was carried out) so no harm in checking.

I'm fairly certain the water is rain water, not just condensation, as the problem only happens when it rains (the heavier the rainfall, the louder/more consistent the dripping sounds and visible leaking water). As a layperson's guess I would assume the issue is maybe with the gap between the flue and the outside wall - I can see the outside bit of the flue pipe through my window, but as I'm on the first floor, I can't get close enough to measure the angle (looks roughly horizontal, but hard to tell if there's a slight incline either way). I can't see if the water's getting inside the boiler for sure without opening it up, which I'm not going to do, but it certainly sounds like it from the persistent internal dripping noises every time it rains.

I've asked if the landlord can send someone else over, as the gas engineer who did the installation seems insistent that there's nothing wrong with the boiler and doesn't want to come out again. I'm hoping that as long as someone else can verify the problem there shouldn't be a need for any long running disputes, and I'll be able to sleep at night without worrying every time it rains! My sense of urgency is as much for the landlord's sake as it is for mine - if there is any kind of internal damage it would be awful if they had to pay for yet another boiler in a sort space of time.

The flue will - should - usually be sloping upwards slightly as it exits the building wall. This is so that any condensate forming inside the flue on the way out will trickle back in to the boiler where it belongs, and not drip off the end of the flue where it can cause damage to the walls (it's slightly acidic). 

So, the boiler itself creates quite a bit a condensate inside the combustion chamber, and some will also form in the flue itself - this is all normal, and is drained away from the boiler via the 22mm plastic pipe coming out from under your boiler.

None of this should visibly escape OUT of the boiler, tho'; the stuff forming inside the flue will join the rest and leave, hidden, via that pipe. 

Two ways I can think of that rain can get in to the boiler - one is via the outer section of the flue, which is the air intake. If you could look at the end of that flue, you'd see a smaller central tube inside the main flue, with a round gap between them. The inner tube is the flue exit, and the outer space surrounding it between it and the flue casing is the air inlet. If water gets in via that inlet space, then it doesn't end up inside the combustion chamber where it can drain via that pipe, but instead ends up outside the chamber where the air is fanned into the burner. This area is not designed for liquids, and any water in there will likely leak out between gaps in the seals and gubbins inside the boiler. 

(This happened to our GlowWorm when the roof was replaced; the gutter hadn't been completed and the open end of the rone just happened to sit directly above the flue terminal - water from the gutter outlet poured directly on to the flue end, and ended up inside and dribbling out from under the boiler.)

The other way that water could get where you are seeing it is from running down completely outside the flue pipe. Ie, there's a natural gap between the flue and the hole in the wall it passes through, but this should be sealed; there should be an obvious rubber gasket/collar  surrounding the flue as it exits, sealing it to the wall. Any rain coming in this way would be visible as it trickles down along the bottom of the flue pipe - on its outside - and then lands on the outside-top of the boiler casing.

Can you see where the flue joins the boiler? Can you have a close look - and feel - and see if there's any water on the underside of the flue pipe, and on the top flue collar of the boiler?

Try NFLO's test with the tarnished penny. Also, any chance of a photo of the flue terminal as it exits the building wall? Finally, the next time it rains, could you look to see if excess water is somehow landing on the flue terminal from above?