Joint tenancy implied surrender

greatcrested

When your joint tenant moved out, what happened?

Clearly the tenancy did not end, so nor did his liability for rent.

Did he continue to contribute to the rent?

Did someone else move in, as a lodger, and ay a proportion of the rent to you? Or to him?

Perhaps point out to him that he is liable for rent from the date he left, and that if he takes legal action against you for the deposit, you will counter-claim for rent?

How much is the deposit, and how much is the difference in rent between your tenancy and the subsequent one? ie will the deposit cover the debt fully?Will a proportion of the deposit be returned to you?

hmovassagian

greatcrested said:

When your joint tenant moved out, what happened?

Clearly the tenancy did not end, so nor did his liability for rent.

Did he continue to contribute to the rent?

Did someone else move in, as a lodger, and ay a proportion of the rent to you? Or to him?

Perhaps point out to him that he is liable for rent from the date he left, and that if he takes legal action against you for the deposit, you will counter-claim for rent?

How much is the deposit, and how much is the difference in rent between your tenancy and the subsequent one? ie will the deposit cover the debt fully?Will a proportion of the deposit be returned to you?

He moved out in June and continued to contribute to the rent up to and including August. From September a friend of mine moved in as a lodger and paid rent instead of my joint tenant. The new tenants moved in on 31 October and since then we haven't paid rent there anymore. So there's no dispute between us regarding rent paid up to 30 October.

The deposit is £2,550 and the difference in rent which we're being asked to pay is £3,550. The last time the agency contacted me was 2 weeks ago, where they agreed to me paying the difference of £1k to settle the matter. They haven't been in touch since, possibly because I started a dispute with the deposit scheme. 

greatcrested

Do you mean a total charge of £1K? ie they will return £1,550 from your deposit 'to settle the matter'?

Or do you mean they intend to keep the deposit and claim an additional £1K from you, which is not a 'settlemement' so much as a claim for the total that you owe?

If the former, agree fast!

If the latter, they have a strong case if/when it goes to arbitration.

As for your joint tenant, he is entitled to half of any deposit returned to you, or liable for any additional amount you have to pay. But that is a matter entirely between the two of you. Nothing to do with the landlord/agent.

hmovassagian

greatcrested said:

Do you mean a total charge of £1K? ie they will return £1,550 from your deposit 'to settle the matter'?

Or do you mean they intend to keep the deposit and claim an additional £1K from you, which is not a 'settlemement' so much as a claim for the total that you owe?

If the former, agree fast!

If the latter, they have a strong case if/when it goes to arbitration.

As for your joint tenant, he is entitled to half of any deposit returned to you, or liable for any additional amount you have to pay. But that is a matter entirely between the two of you. Nothing to do with the landlord/agent.

Yes, they want to keep the deposit and claim an additional £1k. My preferred option is them just keeping the deposit and me paying £1k to them, so that I don't have any obligation to give my joint tenant his half of the deposit back. But in any case I will wait until they threaten legal action.

What leaves me worried however is the fact that there is no written deed of surrender. Is it possible at all that they haven't made a 'proper' AST with the new tenants and that there will be additional charges before the fixed term ends on 31 July 2021?

AdrianC

hmovassagian said:

Yes, they want to keep the deposit and claim an additional £1k. My preferred option is them just keeping the deposit and me paying £1k to them, so that I don't have any obligation to give my joint tenant his half of the deposit back.

It makes no difference. The exact same amount of money changes hands.

You, plural, the tenants will be paying £3,550 to the landlord.
It makes no difference at all to the landlord whether the deposit protection scheme returns £2,550 to you which you then pay to the landlord plus £1,000, or whether the dps pays £2,550 straight to the landlord and you pay £1,000...
(Actually, that's not quite true. One way sees a much stronger chance of the £2,550 being paid to them...)

The only place it might make any difference is in the relationship between you and your ex-housemate as to how that £3,550 is apportioned between the two of you. And that is quite simply not the landlord's problem or business. Nor, I suspect, will it actually make the slightest difference to how much your ex-housemate thinks they owe you...

greatcrested

hmovassagian said:

greatcrested said:

Do you mean a total charge of £1K? ie they will return £1,550 from your deposit 'to settle the matter'?

Or do you mean they intend to keep the deposit and claim an additional £1K from you, which is not a 'settlemement' so much as a claim for the total that you owe?

If the former, agree fast!

If the latter, they have a strong case if/when it goes to arbitration.

As for your joint tenant, he is entitled to half of any deposit returned to you, or liable for any additional amount you have to pay. But that is a matter entirely between the two of you. Nothing to do with the landlord/agent.

Yes, they want to keep the deposit and claim an additional £1k. My preferred option is them just keeping the deposit and me paying £1k to them, so that I don't have any obligation to give my joint tenant his half of the deposit back. But in any case I will wait until they threaten legal action.

What leaves me worried however is the fact that there is no written deed of surrender. Is it possible at all that they haven't made a 'proper' AST with the new tenants and that there will be additional charges before the fixed term ends on 31 July 2021?

Who is named with the deposit scheme as tenant or  'lead tenant'? You? You joint tenant? Both?

If I recall right (without re-reading) you have raised a dispute. Or did your joint tenant do this?

Since you are willing to accept the LL's deduction from the deposit the dispute makes no sense. Withdraw the dispute and allow the LL to claim the full £2,550 deposit from the scheme. That also removes any issue with the joint tenant receiving it (if indeed he would should the deposit be released to one or the other tenant).

Then wait and see whether the LL/agent pursues the claim for the extra £1000. If they do, pay at that point.

hmovassagian

greatcrested said:

hmovassagian said:

greatcrested said:

Do you mean a total charge of £1K? ie they will return £1,550 from your deposit 'to settle the matter'?

Or do you mean they intend to keep the deposit and claim an additional £1K from you, which is not a 'settlemement' so much as a claim for the total that you owe?

If the former, agree fast!

If the latter, they have a strong case if/when it goes to arbitration.

As for your joint tenant, he is entitled to half of any deposit returned to you, or liable for any additional amount you have to pay. But that is a matter entirely between the two of you. Nothing to do with the landlord/agent.

Yes, they want to keep the deposit and claim an additional £1k. My preferred option is them just keeping the deposit and me paying £1k to them, so that I don't have any obligation to give my joint tenant his half of the deposit back. But in any case I will wait until they threaten legal action.

What leaves me worried however is the fact that there is no written deed of surrender. Is it possible at all that they haven't made a 'proper' AST with the new tenants and that there will be additional charges before the fixed term ends on 31 July 2021?

Who is named with the deposit scheme as tenant or  'lead tenant'? You? You joint tenant? Both?

If I recall right (without re-reading) you have raised a dispute. Or did your joint tenant do this?

Since you are willing to accept the LL's deduction from the deposit the dispute makes no sense. Withdraw the dispute and allow the LL to claim the full £2,550 deposit from the scheme. That also removes any issue with the joint tenant receiving it (if indeed he would should the deposit be released to one or the other tenant).

Then wait and see whether the LL/agent pursues the claim for the extra £1000. If they do, pay at that point.

I am the lead tenant and I raised the dispute. It will be declined on Tuesday anyways because they have asked for a letter from my joint tenant saying that he agrees to my acting on his behalf, which he's not willing provide. 

rik111

Why are you making this so complicated ? You've agreed to them keeping the deposit and then put in a dispute... Why on earth would you do that, especially as the other tenant wont agree to it so its a complete waste of everyones time. Why renege on your agreement. Its no wonder letting agents get fed up with Tenants and probably no wonder why the other tenant moved out, you sound like a right one.

hmovassagian

rik111 said:

Why are you making this so complicated ? You've agreed to them keeping the deposit and then put in a dispute... Why on earth would you do that, especially as the other tenant wont agree to it so its a complete waste of everyones time. Why renege on your agreement. Its no wonder letting agents get fed up with Tenants and probably no wonder why the other tenant moved out, you sound like a right one.

I like to make them suffer at least for a bit because they treated us like sh*t, that's why. Hope this answers your questions.

hmovassagian

hmovassagian said:

rik111 said:

Why are you making this so complicated ? You've agreed to them keeping the deposit and then put in a dispute... Why on earth would you do that, especially as the other tenant wont agree to it so its a complete waste of everyones time. Why renege on your agreement. Its no wonder letting agents get fed up with Tenants and probably no wonder why the other tenant moved out, you sound like a right one.

I like to make them suffer at least for a bit because they treated us like sh*t, that's why. Hope this answers your questions.

Might help to mention that I'm dealing with Foxtons here