Gas fitters in la la land.

AskAsk

ComicGeek said:

DiddyDavies said:

GDB2222 said:

I read that, but it makes no sense in practice. I regularly clean our gas hob. If you have one, you probably do too. I remove the burners and pan supports, and I clean them. A literal reading of that regulation would mean that cleaning your gas hob is illegal. Clearly, some work on gas appliances is allowed, provided the person is competent.

No, it doesn't mean that as it clearly refers to workers and employees and if you are working on your own equipment in your own property, you are not a worker (this doesn't apply to properties that you rent out to others).
In fact, as a private individual, provided that you are competent, then legally there is nothing to stop you fitting your own boiler or other gas appliance.
I'm not saying that it's sensible, simply that not being gas-safe registered in itself doesn't mean that you can't do DIY gas work.

You need to look up and consider the definition of 'competent' - in the HSE's Approved Code of Practice and guidance on the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998, it is very clear that the level of competence needed is very high, and requires full training and experience. It is very specific that it does not allow DIY gas work.

yes, i think when law states 'competent' they don't mean joe bloggs who has done it before and is quite good at doing it even though he hasn't got any qualifications to prove he can do it.  the fact of the matter is that he has installed a few boilers before at his home and for his family members and no one has died, may be considered competent by people like us, but that is no where near competent, when the law refers to 'competent'.

DiddyDavies

ComicGeek said:

You need to look up and consider the definition of 'competent' - in the HSE's Approved Code of Practice and guidance on the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998, it is very clear that the level of competence needed is very high, and requires full training and experience. It is very specific that it does not allow DIY gas work.

Really?
If you read the guidance mentioned:
Safety in the installation and use of gas systems and appliances (hse.gov.uk)
it clearly states that DIY gas work is permitted provided that the DIYer is competent to carry out the work:

83 Anyone who does work on a gas fitting or gas storage vessel must be competent to do so (whether or not they are required to be a member of an approved class of persons). Therefore, do-it-yourself gas engineers and those performing favours for friends and relatives all need to have the required competence. The level and range of competence should match the full extent of work done, but needs only to be sufficient for and relevant to that work.

So you can be competent to do one job such as connecting or disconnecting a gas hob but you don't necessarily have to know how to replace a boiler. 

the_gardener_2

As I understand it it used to be case that you could install boilers yourself in your own home.  How do I know that ???
I asked the technical officer or manager at CORGI years ago, although I did ask the question slightly differently   The issue is like electrical work how do you do the testing ?  .     
As an aside you can install  your own electrical work by applying for a building control notice.    It is not cheap but on a large job  can save a lot of money.   
It  is all good to say get someone competent and qualified to carry out the work but that does not automatically guarantee that the work is carried out to a competent standard.   
 





 

ComicGeek

DiddyDavies said:

ComicGeek said:

You need to look up and consider the definition of 'competent' - in the HSE's Approved Code of Practice and guidance on the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998, it is very clear that the level of competence needed is very high, and requires full training and experience. It is very specific that it does not allow DIY gas work.

Really?
If you read the guidance mentioned:
Safety in the installation and use of gas systems and appliances (hse.gov.uk)
it clearly states that DIY gas work is permitted provided that the DIYer is competent to carry out the work:

83 Anyone who does work on a gas fitting or gas storage vessel must be competent to do so (whether or not they are required to be a member of an approved class of persons). Therefore, do-it-yourself gas engineers and those performing favours for friends and relatives all need to have the required competence. The level and range of competence should match the full extent of work done, but needs only to be sufficient for and relevant to that work.

So you can be competent to do one job such as connecting or disconnecting a gas hob but you don't necessarily have to know how to replace a boiler. 

But before that it has already confirmed that the level of competency is defined as:
"81 Gas work should only be undertaken: (a) by a person who has successfully completed an industry recognised training course followed by assessment of competence. Training that leads to assessment of competence in safe gas work should be recognised by the industry’s standards setting body; or (b) in the case of a currently or previously registered person, where they have proved competence through a certification scheme; or (c) for those working at premises that fall outside the scope of the Regulations (see regulation 2(4) and associated guidance), by a person who has successfully completed an appropriate full training course followed by assessment of competence."

So what proportion of DIYers would fall within that criteria? Probably a very small number of experienced gas installers who haven't bothered to renew their GSR membership due to lack of work, retirement etc. And I don't believe that they would consider themselves as DIYers anyway.

Asserting that DIYers can have a go if they consider themselves 'competent' is dangerous. The minimum way to be considered competent to connect or disconnect a gas hob is to undertake an appropriate full training course followed by an assessment of competence.

ComicGeek

the_gardener_2 said:

As I understand it it used to be case that you could install boilers yourself in your own home.  How do I know that ???
I asked the technical officer or manager at CORGI years ago, although I did ask the question slightly differently   The issue is like electrical work how do you do the testing ?

And as Corgi was replaced by the GSR in April 2009 that is completely meaningless.

the_gardener_2 said:

As an aside you can install  your own electrical work by applying for a building control notice.    It is not cheap but on a large job  can save a lot of money.  

Most building control departments have very little knowledge of electrical installations. They won't inspect it themselves, test it and sign it off - they will get an electrician in and charge you for it. Having seen a number of extremely dangerous self installs over the years, I think the Welsh scheme (which only allows installed by a competent person scheme registered electrician) is the best way.

the_gardener_2 said:

It  is all good to say get someone competent and qualified to carry out the work but that does not automatically guarantee that the work is carried out to a competent standard.   

Agreed. But the continuing training, inspections, checks and documentation that the accredited schemes require do work well to quickly identify those who aren't competent. It doesn't always pick up on a single mistake from an otherwise competent installer though.
 
If the general public didn't employ unqualified installers, or didn't pay for works until all of the certification and checks were undertaken, then the cowboy installers would disappear and the average quality of work would increase.  

Andy_L

AskAsk said:

jefaz07 said:

GDB2222 said:

the_gardener_2 said:

Is it a surprise some break the law ?   I know a local builder who installs heating systems him self and gets a gas fitter to commission the work and nice little cash bung.   Illegal of course but a surprise , not me !!!
Sadly he would not disclose the name of said GSR person, I am a bit suspicious. 
I can add up the cost of parts and estimate which makes the issue all the more annoying.   I used to install irrigations systems years ago for the horticultural trade.  Cutting and joining pipe is not exactly skilled work.   Screwing rads and pipe to the wall ,
does require years of training I guess (not).     

It is not breaking the law for an ordinary builder to do all of the work apart from connecting up the boiler to the gas and firing it up. I would suggest that you do this in your cottage, then get a gas safe engineer to commission the boiler. If you can find one to do that. When I fitted a new boiler myself, I found it almost impossible to get a gas safe engineer to commission it. 

Wholly incorrect. Why do some people on here post absolute rubbish. 

The Admins need to look into this. It’s bordering on ridiculous. 

A builder can do wet work. But can’t touch the boiler at all...that includes connecting water to the boiler. 

Abs congrats. You can prosecuted for what you have done. 

Below Is lifted from the HSE website;

No, a Gas Safe registered engineer must fit and check a gas appliance. It is not acceptable for a Gas Safe registered engineer to knowingly ‘sign-off’ gas work that has been carried out by a person who is not registered. Where this occurs, both the registered and unregistered installer may face prosecution.

would explain why he couldn't find a gas safe engineer to connect it up and commision it once he had done it himself, lol 
same thing for electrical work.  some people will do all the wiring themselves then get a qualified electrician to come and connect it up and sign the certificate.  but you would need to find an electrician that would be prepared to do this as this is illegal and he is putting his career at stake.

Only if they just sign the certificate. Its ok to get a sparky to test & inspect the installation and then sign it off.

tacpot12

the_gardener_2 said:

fenwick458 said:

if it's such a lucrative business then why don't you start fitting boilers yourself?

The thought had occurred to me.  Although electrical work looks to have a better future.    

HVAC looks to have a better future than both with all the ASHPs that will need installing after 2025. 

tacpot12

niktheguru said:

How does changing a boiler take 2 days? In my experience they've been able to do it in a day. Of course there'll be some complex jobs that take a long time and some straight forward swaps that are instant. It also depends how hard they want to work. Are they someone that comes early and works hard, or are they on the phone half the time, come late, have a large lunch break etc etc.
These people earn more out of a job that takes a couple of days than most of us earn in a month. I dont mind if the quality is excellent, but sometimes the final quality of work can leave a lot to be desired, despite the high cost! I'm definitely in the wrong career, instead I earn a fraction whilst being fully exposed to covid!

Replacing an old boiler with a new boiler can easily take two days: old boilers will not have a condensate drain, so that needs to be run, old boilers will often have too small a gas line, so a new gas line needs to be run, old boilers will not have a thermostat, so this needs to be run, old boilers will have a different arrangement of pipes, so the pipework needs to be adjusted, the flue will be in a different place and regulations might require a plume kit where none was fitted before, so the flue needs to be adjusted, brickwork outside and in needs to be made good around the flue, a magnetic filter needs to be installed in the existing pipework, and the system needs to be properly flushed, which can take 3 hrs labour to do properly. The apprentice that flushed our 9 rad system had a good sweat on from running up and down stairs to clean the filters for the nth time.

These people do not earn more out of a job in two days that most of earn in a month. When you look at all the costs they have to bear, they earn well enough, £40-50K pa certainly, but not much more, unless they are running a bigger operation employing say three or four engineers, but they have a lot more headaches if they are doing so. In November 2020, the average salary in the UK for full-time employees is £35K pa (Source: ONS).

AskAsk

Andy_L said:

AskAsk said:

jefaz07 said:

GDB2222 said:

the_gardener_2 said:

Is it a surprise some break the law ?   I know a local builder who installs heating systems him self and gets a gas fitter to commission the work and nice little cash bung.   Illegal of course but a surprise , not me !!!
Sadly he would not disclose the name of said GSR person, I am a bit suspicious. 
I can add up the cost of parts and estimate which makes the issue all the more annoying.   I used to install irrigations systems years ago for the horticultural trade.  Cutting and joining pipe is not exactly skilled work.   Screwing rads and pipe to the wall ,
does require years of training I guess (not).     

It is not breaking the law for an ordinary builder to do all of the work apart from connecting up the boiler to the gas and firing it up. I would suggest that you do this in your cottage, then get a gas safe engineer to commission the boiler. If you can find one to do that. When I fitted a new boiler myself, I found it almost impossible to get a gas safe engineer to commission it. 

Wholly incorrect. Why do some people on here post absolute rubbish. 

The Admins need to look into this. It’s bordering on ridiculous. 

A builder can do wet work. But can’t touch the boiler at all...that includes connecting water to the boiler. 

Abs congrats. You can prosecuted for what you have done. 

Below Is lifted from the HSE website;

No, a Gas Safe registered engineer must fit and check a gas appliance. It is not acceptable for a Gas Safe registered engineer to knowingly ‘sign-off’ gas work that has been carried out by a person who is not registered. Where this occurs, both the registered and unregistered installer may face prosecution.

would explain why he couldn't find a gas safe engineer to connect it up and commision it once he had done it himself, lol 
same thing for electrical work.  some people will do all the wiring themselves then get a qualified electrician to come and connect it up and sign the certificate.  but you would need to find an electrician that would be prepared to do this as this is illegal and he is putting his career at stake.

Only if they just sign the certificate. Its ok to get a sparky to test & inspect the installation and then sign it off.

i believe you are not allowed to do the installation yourself as the electrician can not see the cables, which are hidden under the floorboards.  if he is to sign it off, he would have to see all the circuits exposed so he can see exactly all the work.  this is often not practical as it would mean he would have to come and inspect the work while it is in progress, and so won't save any money in reality, and you might as well pay the electrician to do it.

jefaz07

tacpot12 said:

the_gardener_2 said:

fenwick458 said:

if it's such a lucrative business then why don't you start fitting boilers yourself?

The thought had occurred to me.  Although electrical work looks to have a better future.    

HVAC looks to have a better future than both with all the ASHPs that will need installing after 2025. 

Or Hydrogen. Trial starts in a village in the North East....Jan most likely.