Bitcoin

Another_Saver

thegentleway said:

Another_Saver said:

thegentleway said:

Another_Saver said:

thegentleway said:

Reaper said:

Governments will not allow crypto currencies to succeed long term because that means losing control of the key tools to manage their economies. To hand that power over to a currency run by nobody, or worse Facebook, is unthinkable. At best they will remain a commodity just like any other.

The majority of countries do not make the usage of bitcoin itself illegal.

Some governments are also clearly willing to hand over control over interest rates and money printing: e.g. the 19 governments who joined the euro and handed those powers over to the ECB.

Which operates by consensus and veto. That is not a valid argument, all countries are unions.

The US (not in euro zone) can print as much dollar as they want and set interest rates. France (in the euro zone) cannot do this with euro and interest rates. It’s a pretty obvious draw back of having a shared currency. 

You could not be further from my point. The US is literally a union of 50 states all under the Fed, Germany is a union of East and West and before that a conglomeration of principalities under the holy Roman empire and Prussia, the UK is a union of 4 countries. Every currency zone is a voluntary union.

Yes and it’s a great point. Why does it invalidate my recent example of 19 governments choosing to give up the power to print their own currency and set their own interest rate?

....
  

RichTips

verybigchris said:

RichTips said: Regarding your "cultists" comment, that doesn't seem to be an opinion shared by, for example, Brian Brooks, a US financial regulator: "It may have been a bubble two years ago, but with more clarity, institutions that see this as a real thing are going to adopt at scale, which they’ve already started to do".

It's pretty disingenuous to paint Brooks as a "US financial regulator". He only left his post as Chief Legal Officer at Coinbase earlier this year: of course he's going to talk up crypto while he's still got a stake in them.

Eh, you're saying it's disingenuous to describe the Comptroller of the Currency, an office Brooks currently holds and that is responsible for regulating banks in the US, as a US financial regulator? 

RichTips

EdGasketTheSecond said:

RichTips said:

Another_Saver said:

Here we go again...

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/77716012#Comment_77716012

Firstly bitcoin is not an "investment" per se. It's a digital currency or commodity, completely unregulated, with no FSCS protection of any kind at all, which pays you no interest, rent or dividends like a savings account, bond, buy to let property or share in a company would. There is absolutely no certainty at at all that it will generate a positive return, in the same way a savings account or an investment into a good multi-asset fund or broad global index fund is almost guaranteed to over the long term, barring an apocalypse.

Secondly it is extremely volatile.

Thirdly, the only people who "invest" in it are bitcoin cultists and the people stupid enough to be duped by the bitcoin cultists.

Now, it you're willing to accept all that and think "ok, maybe I would still like just a little of my wealth in bitcoin, say 1% or so" you run into the next problem.

The "bitcoin investment industry" abounds with scams.

Bitcoin "brokers" come and go all the time and when not if the broker you choose goes under, you're unlikely to have any recourse to recover your bitcoins.

Finally, if you have to ask on this forum a bunch of strangers on the internet whether "investing" in bitcoin is a good idea, this demonstrates that you do not understand it nearly well enough and should stay away.

This comment was sponsored by common sense.

Bitcoin bros telling me I'm wrong in 3, 2, 1...

Regarding your "cultists" comment, that doesn't seem to be an opinion shared by, for example, Brian Brooks, a US financial regulator: "It may have been a bubble two years ago, but with more clarity, institutions that see this as a real thing are going to adopt at scale, which they’ve already started to do".

Then they are even bigger dupes than the 'cultists'

Two weeks ago, Rick Rieder, who happens to be the chief investment officer of fixed income at BlackRock (which manages almost $8 trillion in assets), had this to say:

"Do I think [Bitcoin is] a durable mechanism that could take the place of gold to a large extent? Yeah, I do, because it's so much more functional than passing a bar of gold around".

It's also now being offered for purchase by PayPal and is held on the books of Square, to name but a couple of holding bodies.

Sure, you can think Bitcoin is a bad investment. You can believe it will go down in price. But to suggest it's being held only by cultists and the stupid demonstrates you may be a little out of touch.  

Another_Saver

RichTips said:

EdGasketTheSecond said:

RichTips said:

Another_Saver said:

Here we go again...

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/77716012#Comment_77716012

Firstly bitcoin is not an "investment" per se. It's a digital currency or commodity, completely unregulated, with no FSCS protection of any kind at all, which pays you no interest, rent or dividends like a savings account, bond, buy to let property or share in a company would. There is absolutely no certainty at at all that it will generate a positive return, in the same way a savings account or an investment into a good multi-asset fund or broad global index fund is almost guaranteed to over the long term, barring an apocalypse.

Secondly it is extremely volatile.

Thirdly, the only people who "invest" in it are bitcoin cultists and the people stupid enough to be duped by the bitcoin cultists.

Now, it you're willing to accept all that and think "ok, maybe I would still like just a little of my wealth in bitcoin, say 1% or so" you run into the next problem.

The "bitcoin investment industry" abounds with scams.

Bitcoin "brokers" come and go all the time and when not if the broker you choose goes under, you're unlikely to have any recourse to recover your bitcoins.

Finally, if you have to ask on this forum a bunch of strangers on the internet whether "investing" in bitcoin is a good idea, this demonstrates that you do not understand it nearly well enough and should stay away.

This comment was sponsored by common sense.

Bitcoin bros telling me I'm wrong in 3, 2, 1...

Regarding your "cultists" comment, that doesn't seem to be an opinion shared by, for example, Brian Brooks, a US financial regulator: "It may have been a bubble two years ago, but with more clarity, institutions that see this as a real thing are going to adopt at scale, which they’ve already started to do".

Then they are even bigger dupes than the 'cultists'

Two weeks ago, Rick Rieder, who happens to be the chief investment officer of fixed income at BlackRock (which manages almost $8 trillion in assets), had this to say:

"Do I think [Bitcoin is] a durable mechanism that could take the place of gold to a large extent? Yeah, I do, because it's so much more functional than passing a bar of gold around".

It's also now being offered for purchase by PayPal and is held on the books of Square, to name but a couple of holding bodies.

Sure, you can think Bitcoin is a bad investment. You can believe it will go down in price. But to suggest it's being held only by cultists and the stupid demonstrates you may be a little out of touch.  

I don't doubt that in an era of growing state surveillance, the drive for privacy and Bitcoin's international acceptance will drive its real demand; nor do I doubt that blockchain has industrial applications. What people duped by Bitcoin miss is that lots of things are being created all the time that fail, Bitcoin was never intended to become an investment it was really just an experiment. There is no reason why it should be seen as within the investable universe.
 Its widening acceptance is irrelevant to it as an investment proposition, which my first post dealt with. To suggest it should be seen as legitimate because people with a vested interest in making money out of it are making public statements about making money out of it, demonstrates that one is seeking not for the kind of thinking that ought to precede an investment decision, but for anything that supports one's extant conclusions.

RichTips

Another_Saver said:

RichTips said:

EdGasketTheSecond said:

RichTips said:

Another_Saver said:

Here we go again...

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/77716012#Comment_77716012

Firstly bitcoin is not an "investment" per se. It's a digital currency or commodity, completely unregulated, with no FSCS protection of any kind at all, which pays you no interest, rent or dividends like a savings account, bond, buy to let property or share in a company would. There is absolutely no certainty at at all that it will generate a positive return, in the same way a savings account or an investment into a good multi-asset fund or broad global index fund is almost guaranteed to over the long term, barring an apocalypse.

Secondly it is extremely volatile.

Thirdly, the only people who "invest" in it are bitcoin cultists and the people stupid enough to be duped by the bitcoin cultists.

Now, it you're willing to accept all that and think "ok, maybe I would still like just a little of my wealth in bitcoin, say 1% or so" you run into the next problem.

The "bitcoin investment industry" abounds with scams.

Bitcoin "brokers" come and go all the time and when not if the broker you choose goes under, you're unlikely to have any recourse to recover your bitcoins.

Finally, if you have to ask on this forum a bunch of strangers on the internet whether "investing" in bitcoin is a good idea, this demonstrates that you do not understand it nearly well enough and should stay away.

This comment was sponsored by common sense.

Bitcoin bros telling me I'm wrong in 3, 2, 1...

Regarding your "cultists" comment, that doesn't seem to be an opinion shared by, for example, Brian Brooks, a US financial regulator: "It may have been a bubble two years ago, but with more clarity, institutions that see this as a real thing are going to adopt at scale, which they’ve already started to do".

Then they are even bigger dupes than the 'cultists'

Two weeks ago, Rick Rieder, who happens to be the chief investment officer of fixed income at BlackRock (which manages almost $8 trillion in assets), had this to say:

"Do I think [Bitcoin is] a durable mechanism that could take the place of gold to a large extent? Yeah, I do, because it's so much more functional than passing a bar of gold around".

It's also now being offered for purchase by PayPal and is held on the books of Square, to name but a couple of holding bodies.

Sure, you can think Bitcoin is a bad investment. You can believe it will go down in price. But to suggest it's being held only by cultists and the stupid demonstrates you may be a little out of touch.  

I don't doubt that in an era of growing state surveillance, the drive for privacy and Bitcoin's international acceptance will drive its real demand; nor do I doubt that blockchain has industrial applications. What people duped by Bitcoin miss is that lots of things are being created all the time that fail, Bitcoin was never intended to become an investment it was really just an experiment. There is no reason why it should be seen as within the investable universe.
 Its widening acceptance is irrelevant to it as an investment proposition, which my first post dealt with. To suggest it should be seen as legitimate because people with a vested interest in making money out of it are making public statements about making money out of it, demonstrates that one is seeking not for the kind of thinking that ought to precede an investment decision, but for anything that supports one's extant conclusions.

So shall we add "people with a vested interest in making money out of it" to your list of those who hold Bitcoin? That would seem reasonable if it's an asset with "real demand" and "widening acceptance". But just to clarify, assets with "real demand" and "widening acceptance" are things you shouldn't buy?

Another_Saver

RichTips said:

Another_Saver said:

RichTips said:

EdGasketTheSecond said:

RichTips said:

Another_Saver said:

Here we go again...

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/77716012#Comment_77716012

Firstly bitcoin is not an "investment" per se. It's a digital currency or commodity, completely unregulated, with no FSCS protection of any kind at all, which pays you no interest, rent or dividends like a savings account, bond, buy to let property or share in a company would. There is absolutely no certainty at at all that it will generate a positive return, in the same way a savings account or an investment into a good multi-asset fund or broad global index fund is almost guaranteed to over the long term, barring an apocalypse.

Secondly it is extremely volatile.

Thirdly, the only people who "invest" in it are bitcoin cultists and the people stupid enough to be duped by the bitcoin cultists.

Now, it you're willing to accept all that and think "ok, maybe I would still like just a little of my wealth in bitcoin, say 1% or so" you run into the next problem.

The "bitcoin investment industry" abounds with scams.

Bitcoin "brokers" come and go all the time and when not if the broker you choose goes under, you're unlikely to have any recourse to recover your bitcoins.

Finally, if you have to ask on this forum a bunch of strangers on the internet whether "investing" in bitcoin is a good idea, this demonstrates that you do not understand it nearly well enough and should stay away.

This comment was sponsored by common sense.

Bitcoin bros telling me I'm wrong in 3, 2, 1...

Regarding your "cultists" comment, that doesn't seem to be an opinion shared by, for example, Brian Brooks, a US financial regulator: "It may have been a bubble two years ago, but with more clarity, institutions that see this as a real thing are going to adopt at scale, which they’ve already started to do".

Then they are even bigger dupes than the 'cultists'

Two weeks ago, Rick Rieder, who happens to be the chief investment officer of fixed income at BlackRock (which manages almost $8 trillion in assets), had this to say:

"Do I think [Bitcoin is] a durable mechanism that could take the place of gold to a large extent? Yeah, I do, because it's so much more functional than passing a bar of gold around".

It's also now being offered for purchase by PayPal and is held on the books of Square, to name but a couple of holding bodies.

Sure, you can think Bitcoin is a bad investment. You can believe it will go down in price. But to suggest it's being held only by cultists and the stupid demonstrates you may be a little out of touch.  

I don't doubt that in an era of growing state surveillance, the drive for privacy and Bitcoin's international acceptance will drive its real demand; nor do I doubt that blockchain has industrial applications. What people duped by Bitcoin miss is that lots of things are being created all the time that fail, Bitcoin was never intended to become an investment it was really just an experiment. There is no reason why it should be seen as within the investable universe.
 Its widening acceptance is irrelevant to it as an investment proposition, which my first post dealt with. To suggest it should be seen as legitimate because people with a vested interest in making money out of it are making public statements about making money out of it, demonstrates that one is seeking not for the kind of thinking that ought to precede an investment decision, but for anything that supports one's extant conclusions.

So shall we add "people with a vested interest in making money out of it" to your list of those who hold Bitcoin? That would seem reasonable if it's an asset with "real demand" and "widening acceptance". But just to clarify, assets with "real demand" and "widening acceptance" are things you shoulbuy?

Yes, because those are not reasons to see it as an investable asset, which you have assumed it to be. You would know this if you hadn't stopped reading at the first sentence in order to react.
This is a thread from someone who clearly doesn't really understand bitcoin, for whom it is clearly advisable to avoid Bitcoin as an "investment", otherwise they would not be asking. For those who truly understand it, how the demand/supply and payments system  anda Blockchain work, and are able to explain why they see it as an investment and how they expect a return, or perhaps they understand it and just like it - go ahead. But please stop with the cultish tantrums when the rest of us ignore it as we do every other hyped thing that comes along.

[Deleted User]

Bitcoin is an investment asset, and excellent one at that. Anyone who doesn't understand it is a fool.

Another_Saver

[Deleted User] said:

Bitcoin is an investment asset, and excellent one at that. Anyone who doesn't understand it is a fool.

Why is it an investable asset?

Why is it an excellent investable asset?
Why is anyone who does not understand that a fool?

barnstar2077

[Deleted User] said:

Bitcoin is an investment asset, and excellent one at that. Anyone who doesn't understand it is a fool.

Have you seen the Emperor's new clothes?  They are wonderful aren't they?

Edit:  Also, you don't sound very patient! :  )

planteria

aidantaylor said:

the basic $250?

?? Bitcoin is currently £14,500. 
i would suggest that anyone and everyone avoids trading schemes, automated programmes etc, but to own some bitcoin as part of a portfolio following some research.