EURO CAR PARKS PCN

SpeedDemon

Hi,
I wanted some advice as not sure on next steps.
Our vehicle was parked in a car park operated by Euro Car park overnight whilst staying at a nearby hotel recently (The car park is not part of the hotel) but used by M&S / Tesco shoppers
After 7pm the car park is free (as advised by hotel reception) but they start to charge 7.30am onwards the following day. The car left the car park the following morning at just before 8am.
A PCN notice to owner was sent in the post the following week.
I appealed using the 'one size fits all' template.
Eurocar parks have responded and declined my appeal to them on the following grounds:

• • Euro Car Parks do not need to provide evidence of who was driving the vehicle, it is the registered keeper’s responsibility to inform of the full name and UK Serviceable address within 28 days beginning with the day after the notice was given. If the full amount remains unpaid, under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (‘the Act’), Euro Car Parks have the right subject of the Act to recover from the keeper of the vehicle at the time it was parked so much of that amount which remains unpaid. 
• •  We note that in your letter you state that the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) is not enforceable as you have currently not entered into a ‘contract’ with Euro Car Parks. I would respectfully remind that contract law applies in this instance. 
• •  The car park is private property and signage on entrance and within the private car park clearly set out the rules and regulations of the car park and tariffs. By entering the car park, parking and leaving the vehicle the driver has accepted the ‘contract’ and therefore if the driver fail to comply with the terms and conditions a Parking Charge Notice will be correctly issued. 
• • The car park is operated by Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) – cameras capture an image of vehicles entering and leaving the car park and calculate their length of stay. 
  •  Parking at the above site is limited to 120 minutes. On entry to private land it is the responsibility of the driver to check for signage and ensure that your vehicle has been correctly parked. 
•  Your vehicle was parked longer than 120 minutes, therefore the notice was issued correctly and remains payable.  

My argument:
1. Signage was not clear in relation to the 120min stay aspect
2. 7pm - 7.30 am the car park is free. As i left the following day just before 8am, really I had only parked less than 30 mins so below the 120 min limit

Any advice on how to construct a robust appeal to POPLA would be appreciated.

Thanks

twhitehousescat

ask them to show you anpr photos with clear timing marked on them 

and dont forget , no matter which way you butter it , you HAVE exceeded time 

the settup there is not like normal pay car parks 
and as such the only payable time is after 7.30am 
because of this you sort of "dont" fall into any sort of grace period , for example , you are not a paying customer , so no 5 mins or 10 mins to exit 

here is the FULL terms regarding grace periods , can you work out which applies to 7.30am onwards , if you parked the night before 

as I said , get pics showing times they are working from

BPA 2020 

 The driver must have the chance to consider the Terms

and Conditions before entering into the ‘parking contract’

with you. If, having had that opportunity, the driver

decides not to park but chooses to leave the car park,

you must provide them with a reasonable consideration

period to leave, before the driver can be bound by your

parking contract. The amount of time in these instances

will vary dependant on site size and type but it must be a

minimum of 5 minutes.

13.2 The reference to a consideration period in 13.1 shall not

apply where a parking event takes place.

13.3 Where a parking location is one where a limited period of

parking is permitted, or where drivers contract to park for

a defined period and pay for that service in advance (Pay

& Display), this would be considered as a parking event

and a Grace Period of at least 10 minutes must be added

to the end of a parking event before you issue a PCN.

13.4 Unauthorised motorists will not be entitled to the minimum

time period of 5 minutes for a consideration period in

spaces designated for specific users e.g Blue Badge holders,

pick up/drop off or where parking is prohibited such as

hatched areas in front of emergency exits, or on entry and

exit ramps etc.

13.5 You must tell us the specific consideration/grace period at

a site if our compliance team or our agents ask what it is.

13.6 Neither a consideration period or a grace period are

periods of free parking and there is no requirement

for you to offer an additional allowance on top of a

consideration or grace period.

SpeedDemon

Thanks for your feedback, I have requested copy of the images.
So IF the images show time timings I have mentioned do you think I have no hope going through the POPLA process and will just end up having to pay the the non reduced rate?
Additional Points:
Car park has 1 hour free parking for M&S customers (via a refund) but M&S store does not open until 8am. Non M&S Customer Charges (0-1hr = £2.00, 1-2 hr = £3.00)
7.30am onwards (when charges apply) No details on the signage on how to make payment if you're a non M&S customer. The old payment machines have been covered in black bags and deemed out of use. So no actual way to make payment

twhitehousescat

no way to make payment or to fulfil your obligations = no contract , they cannot offer something but then make it impossible to fulfill 

sounds like the 7.30am has been done as a honeypot , knowing its "kicking out time"  and nowhere to pay , had the time been 8am and you had left at 8.20 , you could have gone into M+S and bought something 

honeytrap , 

reading your first post again , looks like the hotel have given you false info and by doing so cost you £100 

The car park is not part of the hotel) but used by M&S / Tesco shoppers
After 7pm the car park is free (as advised by hotel reception) but they start to charge 7.30am onwards the following day.

they have ommited to say , that you  nust vacate by 7.30 and CANNOT legally park in the car park till 8am

bad arranged parking by the hotel , i wonder just how much euro are raking in per week by setting free time to 7.30 and removing pay machines  

Coupon-mad

Show us a pic of the sign please.  A lot will depend on what it says about whether the 2 hours rule applies overnight.

D_P_Dance

Complain to your MP, with luck it may lead to a cancellation.

twhitehousescat

Coupon-mad said:

Show us a pic of the sign please.  A lot will depend on what it says about whether the 2 hours rule applies overnight.

but its in the wording , was the car park "free parking" or is the car park exclusivly for patrons of M+S , and not "free" as stated ny hotel staff , it was actually closed for buisness 
but then we get back to the 07.30 opening time , NO ONE can park at 07.30 , because they cannot get a ticket 
re reading 
"Car park has 1 hour free parking for M&S customers (via a refund) but M&S store does not open until 8am. Non M&S Customer Charges (0-1hr = £2.00, 1-2 hr = £3.00)
7.30am onwards (when charges apply) No details on the signage on how to make payment if you're a non M&S customer. The old payment machines have been covered in black bags and deemed out of use. So no actual way to make payment"

unless this is being used as a contract parking site , it would seem that the site is exclusivly for M+S customers , perhaps its M+S car park , and parking control was handed to euro car parks 

perhaps a check on the non domestic rates , or land registry might reviel ownership , and I actually suspect there is no agreement in place between hotel and car park owner 

twhitehousescat

D_P_Dance said:

Complain to your MP, with luck it may lead to a cancellation.

complain to your MP about WHAT , just who or what are you going to complain about , at the end of the day the OP staid on the car park for longer than any grace period , by there own admittance they knew (they were told) that the car park was free untill 07.30 , but chose to stay on the land for a further 20 mins or so ,

so WHAT are you supposed to ask or tell your MP , next week will it be complaint about libary book fines 

SpeedDemon

I have attached a copy of the image which was sent in the response from Euro Car Parks.
Will walk over and take an image of the actual sign to cross check they have not sent me a standard image. Will also take pictures of the machine as they were still covered for some time so it looks like permanent fixture.

Umkomaas

Where does it say anything about free overnight parking up to 7:30am?

twhitehousescat

yes that is a m+s car park ,"euro car parks ON BEHALF OF M+S  there is nothing on that sign to say the car park closes (or does not charge )from 7pm untill 07.30 am , in fact the sign states charges apply at all times , 



the hotel have sold you down the river 

your statement "I have attached a copy of the image which was sent in the response from Euro Car Parks.
Will walk over and take an image of the actual sign to cross check they have not sent me a standard image implies that you are local 

WHERE YOU A customer of the hotel on the night you recieved a ticket , or where you "local" elsewhere