eBay Paypal reversal over 5 months after selling 2nd hand item!

Doozergirl

I sold a range cooker and hood on ebay some five months ago. They were fitted into a brand new kitchen in a house that had been renovated for sale, but the kitchen wasn't wanted and my client was doing the kitchen again.  Neither cooker nor hood had ever been used.  The original price of the combined items would have been in the region of £3,000.  The buyer paid around 40% of this price.  

I've got a message today from Paypal saying that a dispute has been opened with 'item not as described'.   My Paypal balance is now showing over £1,250 in debit as a result!  

Is this buyer having a laugh?  I can't even find the original listing on my ebay account, but they paid once they'd seen it, removed it from the kitchen house themselves and I didn't provide any kind of warranty - it's a second hand ebay purchase!  They knew it was already fitted as I do remember saying that they had to remove it!   There's absolutely no reason to my knowledge why it wouldn't be working perfectly well, but does someone genuinely have a right, five months down the line, to request a refund via Paypal of something they paid 40% of it's new value for? 

If there is, I'm never selling another item on ebay!  

What do I say to Paypal? 

GabbaGabbaHey

PayPal allows buyers up to 180 days to raise a SNAD (Significantly Not As Described) claim. It's all there in the Ts&Cs you signed up to.

Doozergirl

Okay, but I can't even see what I described - which would have been and still is the truth - and it's five months down the line.  So if they break it, or indeed, lie at approaching the 180 day point - it becomes my fault and they've got what was a brand new but installed £3,000 cooker for free?  

They bought two items.  They can't possibly both be broken and worthless.  

Why can't I even see my listing? 

custardy

Its not Paypals issue how long Ebay allow you to view listings.
Why not contact the buyer and enquire what the issue is?
FYI they could have claimed no delivery as it appears you took Paypal for a collection item.
Why wouldnt you do a bank transfer/cash and save the fees/risk?

soolin

At least with an SNAD claim If they win they have to get the item back to you, that might put them off. As above, if they were trying to be really scammy then an INR claim would have got them an immediate refund. 

theonlywayisup

I wrote a long post and it went.

Firstly and you won't need or want a lecture, but never sell for anyone else on ebay/Paypal as 180 days on (and some) you can find yourself in a pickle.

Secondly.  Was the item offered as collection only?  

AFAIK you can only view 90 day sales in ebay.  You can view the invoices in ebay but I don't think that will show you the ebay sale unless you can access a cached view or 'rollback' in google.  May be worth researching the keywords or item number if you have it.

What is the 'not as described' basis of the case?  Paypal are clear that any fault should be on 'first use' and their protection isn't a guarantee.  Is there anything in the basis of the case that may help you?

se2020

If you can't see the item then how can you be sure (or paypal for that matter) that it was not listed as faulty/spares or repairs and was actually as described?

jon81uk

If they collected the item it really should have been paid for offline as well, cash on collection would have been best as then no recourse if it is a private sale.
If you are a business then the consumer regulations apply to you though.

Doozergirl

theonlywayisup said:

I wrote a long post and it went.

Firstly and you won't need or want a lecture, but never sell for anyone else on ebay/Paypal as 180 days on (and some) you can find yourself in a pickle.

Secondly.  Was the item offered as collection only?  

AFAIK you can only view 90 day sales in ebay.  You can view the invoices in ebay but I don't think that will show you the ebay sale unless you can access a cached view or 'rollback' in google.  May be worth researching the keywords or item number if you have it.

What is the 'not as described' basis of the case?  Paypal are clear that any fault should be on 'first use' and their protection isn't a guarantee.  Is there anything in the basis of the case that may help you?

Thanks.  It was collection only and I asked that the buyer removed the items from the wall in the listing. I'm not a regular ebay seller (although I've never had a problem in 17 years) and I actually thought that Paypal was intrinsically linked to my account and I couldn't opt out of accepting it! I wouldn't have chosen it and I wasn't there when it was collected. Next time I will make sure PayPal it isn't an option as when I do sell stuff it's always large and has to be collected anyway. I'd much rather people be happy with what they're buying straight off.

 The SNAD is saying that I sold it brand new. I didn't.  The photos that I do have clearly show that it was installed, and I remember I said in the listing that people needed to remove it themselves as people were messaging asking what they had to do.   It had, however never been used as it still had the manuals and trays in there, still in plastic.

 The issue is that both an oven and grill are tripping their electrics - which my husband almost certainly means that they don't have a dedicated ring main for the cooker as it would probably be one or the other having trouble if there was a fault in the item. The thing had at least three separate ovens. I asked them last night to send me a photo of their consumer unit with the relevant circuit breaker in place. I haven't heard anything yet.

If they have to return it for the refund, then I'm fine with that, but there's not a chance that I sold it as new when the thing was obviously fitted.

soolin

Actually you are correct in thinking that PayPal cannot be removed from the listing, so whilst it is not a good idea to have taken it, you couldn’t actually have had a way to ensure buyer paid cash, this is a well known problem and covered in the sticky thread they problem of collection only items’.

No help to you at all of course, but with the new managed payments it seems eBay will allow a QR code to prove collection which would at least stop an INR , and with tightened time frames also possibly protect against such a late SNAD claim as well. 

theonlywayisup

Doozergirl said:

theonlywayisup said:

I wrote a long post and it went.

Firstly and you won't need or want a lecture, but never sell for anyone else on ebay/Paypal as 180 days on (and some) you can find yourself in a pickle.

Secondly.  Was the item offered as collection only?  

AFAIK you can only view 90 day sales in ebay.  You can view the invoices in ebay but I don't think that will show you the ebay sale unless you can access a cached view or 'rollback' in google.  May be worth researching the keywords or item number if you have it.

What is the 'not as described' basis of the case?  Paypal are clear that any fault should be on 'first use' and their protection isn't a guarantee.  Is there anything in the basis of the case that may help you?

 The SNAD is saying that I sold it brand new. I didn't.  The photos that I do have clearly show that it was installed, and I remember I said in the listing that people needed to remove it themselves as people were messaging asking what they had to do.   It had, however never been used as it still had the manuals and trays in there, still in plastic.

 The issue is that both an oven and grill are tripping their electrics - which my husband almost certainly means that they don't have a dedicated ring main for the cooker as it would probably be one or the other having trouble if there was a fault in the item. The thing had at least three separate ovens. I asked them last night to send me a photo of their consumer unit with the relevant circuit breaker in place. I haven't heard anything yet.

If they have to return it for the refund, then I'm fine with that, but there's not a chance that I sold it as new when the thing was obviously fitted.

I am no tech wizard but can you use the 'wayback machine' or whatever it is called to see if you can locate the listing on google's cache?  Hopefully someone on the tech board may be able to help.  If you can show the original listing to Paypal and highlight the fact the buyer is saying you sold it as new, it will be a cut and dry case.

Ultimately, if you don't fight the case they will be asked to return it to you at their expense, via an online trackable method, in order to get a full refund.  

Are you able to get a telephone number and give them a call.  I find that people that are having problems in operating things (or via the electrics in this case) will normally be more understanding when 'face to face' so to speak.