Care home fees - can we legitimately dispose of some savings?

Gavin83

Sea_Shell said:

How do they actually do a financial check, and what documents do they require?

If you always had, say £50,000 saved in an account for years with a random building society, and then cleared that account out (using a "disposable" Current Account) and closed it, how would the LA ever know that you'd had that money in the first place.

Have banks/BS always had to report accounts to  HMRC in the same way that they do now (for interest purposes)?

So I used to work in the department that processed financial assessments so I’m probably well placed to answer this. We were employed really to carry out 3 different roles. Firstly to answer questions regarding the process, secondly to process the forms and thirdly (and I think likely the main reason we had a job) to spot assets that hadn’t been declared.

To answer your first question to complete the assessment the relative would either come into the council office or someone would meet you at your house to complete it. Typically we would ask for 6 months of bank statements along with docs for any other assets/income.

In terms of how we’d know there were signs we’d look out for. Someone with a high income and barely any assets would raise suspicions. We’d nearly always check property details. Other benefits relating to savings would help because often people were willing to lie to us but not lie for benefit claims, because they see that as “proper” fraud. Sometimes you’d just get a feel for it. Often writing to the relative saying we believe there was an undeclared account would result in them magically finding a bank statement that didn’t exist before. It wasn’t at all uncommon that people would try and hide assets, sometimes significant amounts.

We’d pick up a lot of financial assessments that weren’t quite correct but I’m well aware some would slip through the cracks. Every year we’d review a number of previous cases and we’d always find some that had been assessed wrongly. Some of these reviews resulted in substantial bills. One guy I know basically stole his mother’s house before she went into care and used the money to settle his own mortgage and retire. It was picked up on a review and he was presented with an £80k bill. He was made a generous offer which he refused and ultimately it went to court, he lost and he had to pay £80k + legal fees. From what I understand he had to remortgage his house and return back to work.

In your example if £50k was transferred 10+ years before the placement it’s extremely unlikely this would be picked up by the LA. We had a cut off point of 6 years for asset disposal but this will vary per authority.

lisyloo

Just to add a different tack. I’ve had experience of putting 2 parents into nursing care.
the standard of care within LA budget in our area was very poor. I don’t mean fussy stuff I mean stench of urine, dressing hanging off, and definitely not the sort of care any child would want for their parent.
also when our 2nd parent went in the LA suggested a home 15 miles away after 60 years of marriage to save money. Might not sound too far but when you consider 1 bed bound and one in a wheelchair then it would have been quite a major thing for them to see each other (expensive wheelchair taxi where elderly parent bounces around in wheelchair on country roads - yes we’ve done it).
so if you feel you want care on the tax payer, do bear in mind that (like benefits) it will be a minimum subsistence level. You won’t get a choice to be near family or even a spouse and the level of care is questionable.
compare that with places that have activities like singing, music, bingo, animals, children, hand massages, hair dos and you’ll see an enormous difference in quality of life.
the top quality places are out of this world (circa £1500 per week) with everything purpose designed e.g. corridors wide enough for careers auto walk alongside.
sometimes the suggestion comes from the parents the themselves but having had experience of the sector I’d say they were misguided.

lisyloo

wilfred30 said:

Generally speaking then, I presume it would be for the Local Authority to decide as they would be lumbered with paying the cost of the care for someone who couldn't pay it themselves.

With the help of reports from hospitals/doctors yes.
my MIL was observed in hospital for a while to see if she was able to make safe decisions (she actually had a fall in hospital during this time).
also partners may be assessed as well, for example my FIL hobbled in on his Zimmer frame and broke down emotionally saying he couldn’t take responsibility 24/7 for her, which was very difficult for him.
there is an option for care at home, the limit tends to be 4 x 1 hour visits per day, these were in the order of £15 per hour when we paid privately so cheaper than residential care.
it would depend on capability but also whether they have help and can make safe decisions for themselves,
the LA will not put someone in residential or nursing care until the point that they definitely need it. Before that partner, family, meals on wheels, care at home should step in.
There may also be some sheltered accommodation options but these are in limited supply.
with private resources it would be better to move in advance to help the person adjust but resources are such that someone won’t get it until they need it if they aren’t self funding, It’s common for this to happen when an elderly person has a fall or illness and doesn’t get well enough to go home or look after themselves.
don’t forget that care at home is an option first if someone is safe. Once they forget to drink or turn the cooker off then they are no longer safe,

Gavin83

To answer Wilfred30's question (I can't find the post) typically the local authority don't make the choice as to which home they'll go in. What they'll normally do is provide a small list of homes to the relatives and let them make the decision as to which one is best. This will of course only contain homes which accept the council rate, unless a relative has indicated they're willing to pay a top up fee.

This process generally works quite well and only really becomes a problem when the relative doesn't like any of the homes offered, normally because they've got one in mind which inevitably ends up being one which charges above the council rate. Despite what one poster who pops up on these sort of threads will tell you the LA won't pay the top up fees except in exceptional circumstances and the relative putting up a fight isn't one of these.

Also like most things in life you typically get what you pay for, although they'll always be exceptions. Every home has to provide a basic level of care by law, the extra money above the council rate will typically pay for a nicer room, more activities, a better menu, that kind of thing. As a caveat it's also entirely likely you'll have privately funded residents in a home filled mainly with council funded residents, although personally I think it's madness to place such a resident there. As mentioned above though it's largely the decision of the family.

lisyloo

We got top up fees covered twice but it was difficult. We went to panel.
we had 2 things going for us. Both parents were in hospital bed blocking and I believe LAs can be fined punitively by hospitals for this so they had a urgent factor.
we providded very strong advocacy including the physical needs, emotional (Maried 60 years) and their rights.
i would not in anyway say it’s easy and never guaranteed but it is possible especially if the hospital wants rid.
we did not find a decent home within LA rates in our area, this was partly down to a high level of needs e.g. assistance of 2, hoisting where the options available narrow down. There were many places that Said they wouldn’t take one parent.

anyone depriving themselves or their parents of money is nuts IME although my own parents have done exactly that (without consulting me). Once I said on here it wasn’t legal and received a long and formal complaint from a legal firm, so it appears there are legal methods which require legal advice and help.

Gavin83

Gavin83 said:

Despite what one poster who pops up on these sort of threads will tell you the LA won't pay the top up fees except in exceptional circumstances and the relative putting up a fight isn't one of these.

Lisyloo, it's almost like you sensed my comment....

I'll be totally honest here. The circumstances you describe are so unusual that if you were a new poster I'd claim you were making it up. As you've been here a while I'll just assume you have an extremely generous LA, or they were feeling particularly worn down that day. As I said in my post there are exceptional circumstances where the LA will pay top up fees and keeping the couple together is not one of them. I've seen a number of long married couples placed in different care homes and I've never known any LA's to pay top up fees to prevent this.

There's a reason people often advise people to keep hold of their assets to allow them choices when it comes to care. If you want to be placed in the same care home as your spouse then make sure you've got enough assets to pay for it. Otherwise the LA will decide and while they'll make every attempt to keep them together if they can't find a home that accepts the council rate for both of them they will get separated.

You are correct in that LA's do get fined for bed blocking in hospitals. However this wouldn't be a reason to pay a top up fee. If you think about it logically the bed blocking fines are still likely to be significantly less than paying top up fees for a care home resident for several years. If relatives refused all home options, especially if they were bed blocking the council would remove the right for the relative to select the home and the LA would choose instead.

Honestly I think you got very lucky. While I think it's worth sharing your experiences as something that could potentially happen I do think it's dangerous advice to give on the whole given how unusual the circumstances are. Most wouldn't get the same result.

DerektheDonkey

lisyloo said:

We got top up fees covered twice but it was difficult. We went to panel.
we had 2 things going for us. Both parents were in hospital bed blocking and I believe LAs can be fined punitively by hospitals for this so they had a urgent factor.
we providded very strong advocacy including the physical needs, emotional (Maried 60 years) and their rights.
i would not in anyway say it’s easy and never guaranteed but it is possible especially if the hospital wants rid.
we did not find a decent home within LA rates in our area, this was partly down to a high level of needs e.g. assistance of 2, hoisting where the options available narrow down. There were many places that Said they wouldn’t take one parent.

anyone depriving themselves or their parents of money is nuts IME although my own parents have done exactly that (without consulting me). Once I said on here it wasn’t legal and received a long and formal complaint from a legal firm, so it appears there are legal methods which require legal advice and help.

BIB, I quote, "We got top up fees covered twice but it was difficult.'
You've already mentioned nursing care rather than care homes, might you mean continuing health care (CHC) top-ups to the nursing home in which Health are paying these top-ups, not the council?
It's still cheaper than keeping persons in hospital.
That'd be entirely different to what I believe Gavin83 is correctly stating.

lisyloo

Gavin83 said:

Gavin83 said:

Despite what one poster who pops up on these sort of threads will tell you the LA won't pay the top up fees except in exceptional circumstances and the relative putting up a fight isn't one of these.

Lisyloo, it's almost like you sensed my comment....

I'll be totally honest here. The circumstances you describe are so unusual that if you were a new poster I'd claim you were making it up. As you've been here a while I'll just assume you have an extremely generous LA, or they were feeling particularly worn down that day. As I said in my post there are exceptional circumstances where the LA will pay top up fees and keeping the couple together is not one of them. I've seen a number of long married couples placed in different care homes and I've never known any LA's to pay top up fees to prevent this.

There's a reason people often advise people to keep hold of their assets to allow them choices when it comes to care. If you want to be placed in the same care home as your spouse then make sure you've got enough assets to pay for it. Otherwise the LA will decide and while they'll make every attempt to keep them together if they can't find a home that accepts the council rate for both of them they will get separated.

You are correct in that LA's do get fined for bed blocking in hospitals. However this wouldn't be a reason to pay a top up fee. If you think about it logically the bed blocking fines are still likely to be significantly less than paying top up fees for a care home resident for several years. If relatives refused all home options, especially if they were bed blocking the council would remove the right for the relative to select the home and the LA would choose instead.

Honestly I think you got very lucky. While I think it's worth sharing your experiences as something that could potentially happen I do think it's dangerous advice to give on the whole given how unusual the circumstances are. Most wouldn't get the same result.

I was hoping you comment wasn’t referring to me as I don’t think I’ve ever described it as anything like a racing certainty.
i can’t see how you can describe it as generous in anyway to split up a couple who were married for 60 years. We had to fight with arguments on several fronts.
I can’t see how they would been worn down as it would have to go to a panel which is multiple people reviewing the case.
it may be a high level of need but there genuinely weren’t that many homes in our area that would take both immobility (hoists needed) and dimension. Obviously we had a preference for somewhere that would keep her until the grave and not disorient a dimension patient when her needs exceeded their capacity. Whilst I understand what’s available on the taxpayer (and that’s me BTW) is limited, certain things (kicking dimensia patients out, splitting up married couple) are cruel.
To be clear they paid top up fees as we refused (fought) on every other place with good and well argued reasons.
I’m not sure about the top up bit. The LA have an agreed with the home that are about £100 cheaper than private rates (I know this because MiL paid privately once FIL died and home was no longer disregarded). It’s more than they’d like to pay but they do put some LA residents there (we were not the only one).

i totally agree with advising people to keep hold of their assets and I think I used our example to do this (or at least that was what I was trying to do). As it happened our folks did not have assets until one of them passed anyway so it’s not relevant in their case.

the LA did seem to have some urgency. We did our best to visit the homes as quick as we could butwe all have jobs and don’t all live locally.

we did not refuse all home options, but many refused MIL (dimensia, incontinent and mobility issues). We were not being difficult, we put valid reasons forward for all those we refused.

i was not giving advice, not in the context you think anyway.
i was warning how difficult it was and how couples might get split up.
i regret if that did not come across.
i certainly would encourage people to keep hold of assets.
i am not sure how you can misconstrue “anyone depriving themselves or their parents of money is nuts IME”, so I think you are being somewhat unfair in your interpretation of what I have been saying.
its all true BTW the home was edgemont view in Bristol and LA was BANES. Not sure if it makes any difference but it went across a boundary (to a cheaper area as Bristol is cheaper than bath generally).

it would genuinely help if you can link to any comments where I’ve implied this is dead easy or to be relied upon as I think I’ve been saying the exact opposite.