Solicitor charging nearly £500 to fill in a Renunciation Form from .gov site !!

Savvy_Sue

Rodders2409 said:

Just to double check, if I go back to the Probate office and ask for the application to be changed to 'power renounced' what does that actually mean with regards to the solicitors ability's to be involved? 

It's 'power reserved' not renounced. Sorry to be picky, but it matters! 

'Power reserved' means that your father and brother don't intend to take an active part in the work, BUT at any time they can change their minds, ask questions of you, take an active part again. So suppose something happened to you, say you got very busy at work, then your brother could just step in and take over. 

'Renouncing' means saying "I am not involved at all, you don't have to tell me anything, I'm not going to get involved, nothing to do with me mate." And it's final, there's no coming back from it. 

Now, my reading of the will indicates that if your dad and brother reserve their powers, there are now two or three executors, so the solicitors don't come into play at all, because no-one has renounced, no-one is unable to act, no-one has died (apart, of course, from your mum, and I am sorry for your loss). 

Rodders2409 said:

Also I wonder if I could just cancel the application and start a fresh ...it'd only cost the £50.

That is definitely a question worth asking the Probate Office. In fact, when you say you've made a mistake and want to reserve powers rather than renouncing, they may say that is what you have to do. 

Rodders2409 said:

Regarding my Fathers Will, can I just arrange a Codicil and apply this to the Will, which I believe we can do without a Solicitor? 

You could, BUT I really really wouldn't recommend it. I hope you won't mind me saying, but you clearly don't have a good enough grasp of the subtleties of legal phrasing to be sure of getting it right without a solicitor, AND if you go to a solicitor it will almost certainly not be significantly more expensive to write a new will. Also please go to a 'proper' solicitor (not necessarily THIS one) rather than a will-writer, who may be no more formally qualified than you are ...)

PLUS your father's situation has now changed: he is the survivor of what I'm guessing was a mirror will - ours say "survivor of the first to die gets the lot, kids get it all after the survivor dies" and the only difference between them is the names. 

A good solicitor will ask all the 'what if' questions. What if - not nice to contemplate but necessary - either or both of you die before your dad? Do either of your have children of your own? If you do, might there be more in future? Would your dad want to leave anything to them in a will - in any case, or only if they've lost their father? And so on. 

And a good solicitor will also recommend Lasting Power of Attorney, for finance and health. You don't HAVE to use a solicitor to prepare and register these, but it really is a good idea to have them in place well before you need them. 

Rodders2409

Thanks Keep Pedaling and Savvy Sue,
There's absolutely no problem in questioning my legalese, as that's why I'm here 
Just for info, we have LPA's both finance and health set up for Dad, which I did on-line so that's all good, and Mums will is a mirror of Dads both being created and modified by the same solicitor over the years....which is why I'm frustrated by their apparent greed!

From your very helpful info I'm minded to do the following....
A- Contact Probabte office and advise there's been a mistake and my Brother does not want to Renunciate (maybe my father too) and that we a=want to cancel the process to start again, unless they allow us to simply destroy the existing Renunciation forms. If this goes well then the Solicitor is out of the equation = all good!

B - Get my Dad to talk to the Solicitor, but he's also really annoyed at them, and see if they'll waiver or reduce the fees.
C - Pay the blood sucking mob and get on with life
D - Copy WORD for WORD the existing will for my Dad and remove mum and the Solicitors names from said 'new' version. This is, as I understand, both legally acceptable and not that difficult.

Do these sound OK to you, or am I really kidding myself?
Cheers.  

Savvy_Sue

Rodders2409 said:

D - Copy WORD for WORD the existing will for my Dad and remove mum and the Solicitors names from said 'new' version. This is, as I understand, both legally acceptable and not that difficult.

Do these sound OK to you, or am I really kidding myself?

You do need to check very carefully how you get the will signed and witnessed, and personally I think it's worth paying a solicitor to do the job properly and ask the 'What if?' questions. I'm not saying you can't get it right, just that this is one of those things I'm prepared to pay a qualified professional to do. 

BTW, did you and your brother also do LPAs? They are not just for old people ... 

The other conversation I'd have with Dad is what his funeral wishes are - cheery subject I know. We felt fortunate that we had Mum to tell us what to do for Dad, because he wouldn't have had a clue, and then when she went we followed pretty much the same format / hymns etc. 

Rodders2409

Thanks Savvy Sue,
Yes both my brother and I have LPA's ...unfortunately I've been thrown into this world as my better half has a  Multiple System Atrophy (MSA) which is a rare neurological condition, and terminal, so the various elements surrounding these situations like Wills and LP[As are only too common for us. 
My Dad did his funeral plans about 10 yrs ago!!

I've looked around and there is a fair amount of advice on 'home wills' available, and from proper sources too. The fact that we can do a direct copy of Dads existing Will sounds like good advice, but I still have a question on why not complete a Codicil ?......anyone?

Savvy_Sue

Codicils can get messy, and it's easy to end up with not the desired effect. Which is why you'd normally be recommended to start afresh. 

Rodders2409

Understood Savvy Sue.
I'm writing to the Probate office to request them to cancel my brothers renunciation, and lets see how it goes from theer.

May thanks all for the help.

poppystar

 2 “I APPOINTmy husband xxxxxxx my son xxxxxxxx  and my son xxxxxxxx (hereinafter together called “my Trustees”) and in case any one or more of them shall die in my lifetime or shall renounce probate or refuse or be unable to act in the of Executor or Trustee then I APPOINT the partners or Sole Principal as the case may be at the date of my death in the firm of XXXXXXXXX of XXXXXXXX or the firm which at that date has succeeded to and carries on its practice to fill any vacancy in the office of Executor or Trustee hereof that may occur AND I DECLARE THAT the expression “my Tristees” shall where the context admits include the Trustee or Trustees for the time being hereof whether original or substituted.

Doesn’t this mean both you father and brother would have to come back into the role or the clause would still apply? ...”any one or more” ... Not sure cancelling just one renunciation would invalidate the solicitors getting involved.

naedanger

poppystar said:

 2 “I APPOINTmy husband xxxxxxx my son xxxxxxxx  and my son xxxxxxxx (hereinafter together called “my Trustees”) and in case any one or more of them shall die in my lifetime or shall renounce probate or refuse or be unable to act in the of Executor or Trustee then I APPOINT the partners or Sole Principal as the case may be at the date of my death in the firm of XXXXXXXXX of XXXXXXXX or the firm which at that date has succeeded to and carries on its practice to fill any vacancy in the office of Executor or Trustee hereof that may occur AND I DECLARE THAT the expression “my Tristees” shall where the context admits include the Trustee or Trustees for the time being hereof whether original or substituted.

Doesn’t this mean both you father and brother would have to come back into the role or the clause would still apply? ...”any one or more” ... Not sure cancelling just one renunciation would invalidate the solicitors getting involved.

Yes, that is how I would read it. To the op you need to tell the probate office both renunciation forms should be ignored and returned. (Personally I would not say "cancelled" that might imply you think the renunciations actually took effect. In which case I think they probably cannot now be "cancelled". If pressed I would say they were signed by mistake under a misunderstanding - assuming that is correct and they meant to reserve their powers rather than renounce them.) 

Rodders2409

Thanks naedanger

That makes sense and that's what we'll do, request that both are removed as we were confused and they need to remain in place but as 'reserved'.

Rodders2409

Hello All,
I thought it a good idea to post the result of my action to reverse the Renunciation of mf my Father and Brother when applying for probate. Well, after a bit of hassle with the Probate Office with needing to send multiple letters from my brother and father, the Office cancelled the Renunciation forms and issued Probate. So all good in the end, in as much as the Soilicitors didn't get their exorbitant £500 for choosing to not utilise the Probate's Office (GOV) existing template.

I have a question though.
During this process, I was advised that if I wanted to remove the same Solicitors from my fathers Will, to ensure they don;t do the same thing, then I could simply use Dad's existing will and re-write it word for word but remove them from it. Is that correct?
Here are the specific excerpts from my Dad's Will, 

2 “I APPOINT my wife xxxxxxx my son xxxxxxxx  and my son xxxxxxxx (hereinafter together called “my Trustees”) and in case any one or more of them shall die in my lifetime or shall renounce probate or refuse or be unable to act in the of Executor or Trustee then I APPOINT the partners or Sole Principal as the case may be at the date of my death in the firm of XXXXXXXXX of XXXXXXXX or the firm which at that date has succeeded to and carries on its practice to fill any vacancy in the office of Executor or Trustee hereof that may occur AND I DECLARE THAT the expression “my Tristees” shall where the context admits include the Trustee or Trustees for the time being hereof whether original or substituted.

 2a ANY EXECUTOR or Trustee being a Solicitor shall be entitled to charge and be paid in priority to all other dispositions under this my Will or any Codicil thereto all usual professional or other proper charges for any business or acts done by him or his firm in connection with the administration of my estate and the trusts hereof including acts which an Executor or Trustee not being in any profession or business could have done personally.

.....if I modify it to read...

2 “I APPOINT my wife xxxxxxx my son xxxxxxxx  and my son xxxxxxxx (hereinafter together called “my Trustees”) 

.....thus removing any and all mention of them.

My Dad's estate is not complicated, with a fully owned home, contents (standard stuff), Premium bonds, savings account, Private pension (small)

Any advice would be great, thanks.