Solicitor charging nearly £500 to fill in a Renunciation Form from .gov site !!

Rodders2409

Hello All,
I wondered in anyone can point me in the right direction with regards to sorting out my Mum's probate.
We've waited a while to complete the process after the Nationwide increased their Probate threshold, and we didn't need to get it done until now. Mum and Dad had used a local Solicitor over the years for their wills and a few other bits, and when Mum passed away we had them quote to sort out probate but was shocked at what seemed to be an extortionate fee, something in the region of £2K. After looking here and other sites I saw it seemed doable by yours truly and that's what we did. Filled in all the forms and requested the original wills from the solicitors to send together with renunciation forms from my Dad and brother who are named as executors. I'm being tasked to get it sorted so obviously I didn't do a Renunciation form. This week I got an email from the Probate office asking a question about our Solicitors position as executors. Looking at a copy of the will I realised that the solicitors had put themselves into the mix as executors IF my father, my brother or I pass away leaving mums estate in place. So, I approached the Solicitor and they said "sure we can do a Renunciation form. it will cost £480"

I asked why, and if they used the .GOV form which is regulated and authorised and perfectly adequate...they said no, they used their own!...I asked if it was gold leaf and they chose not to answer. So, I went back to the Email that the Probate office sent me and there are two options I have...

3) The executor does not wish to apply for probate now but wishes to reserve the right to act as executor in the future – this option is referred to as having ‘power reserved’. (if you choose this option you must confirm you have given written notice that you are applying for a grant of representation to the executor who is not applying).

4) The executor does not wish to apply now and does not wish to apply in the future. The executor that wishes to take that option will need to complete a renunciation form, available for download on gov.​uk, and return by post to:

...so option 4 will cost nearly £500 and I'd rather not, therefore I have a question about option 3.

It seems to me that if I send them a letter to the Solicitor saying that I'm applying, for grant of representation, unless they come up with some formal appea,l then they maintain an ability to act as executor in the future but what does this really mean in practice??

Can anyone please advise....thanks.  

Savvy_Sue

It might be worth you posting the exact wording about the appointment of executors, because from what you have said, the probate office seem to have misunderstood. What you say indicates that the solicitors are alternate executors IF all three of the original executors have predeceased, and since none of you have ... 

Obviously remove actual names, but it's possible the wording is not quite as you have indicated and other sets of eyes on it may help. 

Also what exactly have the Probate office asked? It may be that a simple response to them is all that's needed. 

Rodders2409

Thanks Savvy, I'll do as you say and post the relevant words of the Will and Probate office email....I'll do that tomorrow morning.
Cheers again.

TBagpuss

I see Savvy beat me to it - it sounds as though the solicitors are not executors, they are substitute executors and their appointment would only take effect if the actual executors had died or were unable to act.
It may be that the issue is that because your dad and brother are renouncing, that triggers the appointment of the solicitors (the will may require at least 2 executors, be worded to say that if 'one or more' of the original executors have predeceased or are unable to act' that the appointment of the solicitors takes effect. ) so your best bet may be for your brother and yourself to apply, or for you to apply with power reserved to your brother and/or dad.

£480 is a lot for a renunciation - it's reasonable for them to make a charge as they do need to do some work, but that seems excessive 

Keep_pedalling

TBagpuss said:

I see Savvy beat me to it - it sounds as though the solicitors are not executors, they are substitute executors and their appointment would only take effect if the actual executors had died or were unable to act.
It may be that the issue is that because your dad and brother are renouncing, that triggers the appointment of the solicitors (the will may require at least 2 executors, be worded to say that if 'one or more' of the original executors have predeceased or are unable to act' that the appointment of the solicitors takes effect. ) so your best bet may be for your brother and yourself to apply, or for you to apply with power reserved to your brother and/or dad.

£480 is a lot for a renunciation - it's reasonable for them to make a charge as they do need to do some work, but that seems excessive 

I think it was a mistake for your father and brother to renounce, it would have been better for them to hold powers in reserve. Not only would that have removed any risk of back-up executors coming into play, it would also cover the risk of you not being able to complete probate if you became incapacitated for any reason.

Rodders2409

Hello Savvy and all,

Sorry i only just back to this.
Here is an extract of my Mums will detailing the bit I believe to be relevant. Upon reading it again I think I understand that maybe the Probate office aren't seeing that my father, my brother and I are THE Trustee's and the Solicitors don't really have anything to do with Probate being granted...I could be wrong though.

 2 “I APPOINTmy husband xxxxxxx my son xxxxxxxx  and my son xxxxxxxx (hereinafter together called “my Trustees”) and in case any one or more of them shall die in my lifetime or shall renounce probate or refuse or be unable to act in the of Executor or Trustee then I APPOINT the partners or Sole Principal as the case may be at the date of my death in the firm of XXXXXXXXX of XXXXXXXX or the firm which at that date has succeeded to and carries on its practice to fill any vacancy in the office of Executor or Trustee hereof that may occur AND I DECLARE THAT the expression “my Tristees” shall where the context admits include the Trustee or Trustees for the time being hereof whether original or substituted.

 

2a ANY EXECUTOR or Trustee being a Solicitor shall be entitled to charge and be paid in priority to all other dispositions under this my Will or any Codicil thereto all usual professional or other proper charges for any business or acts done by him or his firm in connection with the administration of my estate and the trusts hereof including acts which an Executor or Trustee not being in any profession or business could have done personally.

Any help or advice very welcome,

Cheers

Keep_pedalling

Clause 2 does seem to appoint the solicitors as executor if just one of the 3 executors dies or renounces, which is why the probate office have queried it, so it looks like you are stuck with getting them to renounce. 

Assuming your father’s will contains the same clause, he really needs a new one, with just you and your brother as executors.

Savvy_Sue

I agree with Keep_pedalling. It seems like a classic If ... Then statement, although the actual wording is 'in case'. 

So IF any of your father, your brother or you ... die or renounce probate or refuse or be unable to act 

THEN 

I appoint ... to fill any vacancy 

I am just wondering if it's worth speaking to the probate office and explaining that their letter has made you aware that all three of you COULD act, but that you are taking the lead, and you didn't realise the distinction between renouncing and reserving power. Basically, ask if you can try again, with your father and brother going for 'power reserved' rather than 'renounced'. I honestly have no idea if that's possible ... 

If not, I would speak to the solicitors again: the guidance (assuming in England) is that solicitors should renounce executorship if requested to do so. https://www.getprobate.com/can-i-remove-a-solicitor-acting-as-executor-of-a-will/, particularly the section 

HOW TO REMOVE A SOLICITOR ACTING AS EXECUTOR

Bottom line is, however, that they are entitled to charge for their time in renouncing. You could argue that £500 for a renunciation is unreasonable (and I would, but then I'm not a solicitor), and you could make a complaint, but until you're actually their client I'm not sure they'll listen to you. It might, however, be worth pointing out that your father is going to re-write his will to remove this ambiguity, and if they want his business, they should consider what they might to do to foster his loyalty. I'd find out who at the practice deals with complaints and see if you can make direct contact with them. 

Oh, and other bottom line is that £500 for renunciation is less than the 2K+ they might charge for doing the whole lot, so be comforted by that ... 

I'm not sure your suggestion for facilitating Option 3 would work, by the way, and might make things worse. 

Rodders2409

Thanks Savvy Sue and Keep pedaling,
Just to double check, if I go back to the Probate office and ask for the application to be changed to 'power renounced' what does that actually mean with regards to the solicitors ability's to be involved?
Also I wonder if I could just cancel the application and start a fresh ...it'd only cost the £50.
Regarding my Fathers Will, can I just arrange a Codicil and apply this to the Will, which I believe we can do without a Solicitor? 

Thanks for your help.

naedanger

Rodders2409 said:

Thanks Savvy Sue and Keep pedaling,
Just to double check, if I go back to the Probate office and ask for the application to be changed to 'power renounced' what does that actually mean with regards to the solicitors ability's to be involved?
Also I wonder if I could just cancel the application and start a fresh ...it'd only cost the £50.
Regarding my Fathers Will, can I just arrange a Codicil and apply this to the Will, which I believe we can do without a Solicitor? 

Thanks for your help.

What you want to try and do is stop your brothers' renunciations taking effect. That way they will remain as executors and you can ignore the solicitors.

The key question is when does a renunciation become effective, and I don't know the answer. If it is when the form is signed then you are probably too late (unless they made some mistakes). However if it is once approved by the probate office then you may be able to get them back prior to them taking effect, and your brothers can destroy them.

So it would in my view be worth speaking to the probate office to see if you can still stop you brothers' renunciations taking effect. If this is successful but your brothers want to leave the work to you then they can reserve their powers - in which case they remain as executors but don't get involved unless they wish to.

I am sure Savy Sue and/or Keep Pedalling will be along to provide a more definitive response.

I believe adding a codicil is generally regarded as a bad idea and solicitors tend to find it safer to redraft the will. And doing a codicil on a diy basis is probably even more risky than doing a will on a diy basis. (And the trouble is any problem may will only come to light when it is impossible to correct.)

Keep_pedalling

Rodders2409 said:

Thanks Savvy Sue and Keep pedaling,
Just to double check, if I go back to the Probate office and ask for the application to be changed to 'power renounced' what does that actually mean with regards to the solicitors ability's to be involved?
Also I wonder if I could just cancel the application and start a fresh ...it'd only cost the £50.
Regarding my Fathers Will, can I just arrange a Codicil and apply this to the Will, which I believe we can do without a Solicitor? 

Thanks for your help.

If it is possible to start again, with no one renouncing then you should not need that solicitor’s letter. The big question is can you actually do that. You will need to speak to the probate office to find out if you can resubmit the application.

if your father want to make no other changes other than removing executors, then you could alway copy the existing one word for word, just removing your mother and the solicitors from the executors roll, but if there is anything more complex like trusts then get a new one drawn up with different solicitors.