Small claims against me

Carrot007

Aylesbury_Duck said:

I'm no car expert but that looks like it might be in the "surprisingly low price" bracket, given the low mileage for a six year old car.  I found a few of that age at around that price, but all with much more expected mileage for the age, e.g. 90,000 miles.  Dropping the mileage to the sort that yours has suggests prices much closer to the £10,000 the dealer is saying it should have been.  That suggests to me that a pricing error was made and that the alleged real price is realistic.

Under 8K a year comes into the teriroty of just as bad as over whatever a year you might think is high in my view. 4.5K comes into the would not touch with a bargepole teritory. Unless there was a very good explanation for it asnd it was serviced every 6 months. Given the choice I would have gone for a 90K car over this one. But many people do not understand that low milage is not a good thing.

Aylesbury_Duck

Just file your defence accordingly.  Stick to the facts as you recall them.

Looking at the numbers, there is one possible way his maths got confused. £6750 plus £5250 is £12000. Take off your part-ex of £1750 and you get the £10250 he claimed was the money you owed. That's the only way I can combine the various numbers to get to the right value. I wonder if he tied himself in knots rushing his paperwork and that's how he ended up only asking you for £5250.  

The court will decide whether the mistake warrants cancellation of the contract.

I've just seen photome's post. I tend to agree.  The fact they rang within 30 minutes and you were unwilling to engage creates the impression of an error on their part and not complete innocence on yours. 

Were_Doomed

Littleconfused said:

yes tried to keep it simple but ill explain more. basically we hadnt seen the car advertised prior to this, just advised the garage had whati wanted so I, rang to view it and test drive it, and discussed the part ex more looking back. it was a merc c220, in actual fact he offered £1500 and we declined and he agreed £1750. however, on the receipt he put £1500 which i didnt notice at the time. on the receipt he put car price £6750, part ex £1500, leaves £5250 to pay,  yet on the declaration he sent to the courts it says  the car was advertised at £10490 on autotrader, however, thats irrelevant we didn't see it there for sale, but on the paper work he contradicts the amounts and says the car was £10250 and and sold for £6250, he seems to be just making amounts up as he goes along. he rang me on the way home about 30 mins after i left but was driving, he left a message saying i put the wrong amount on the invoice you owe me £3500, i text and said i will seek advice on this, he then said you haven't paid the full amount im calling the police. i said ok because i have the receipt, but felt intimidated so rang the police for advice. they said it seems strange and that the price we paid isn't obviously wrong and had it of been £2000 or something clearly too low that would be fair enough, and that he would be letting action Fraud know about this as he felt he was trying to scam me out of money. he said bring the car back and take the money but i didnt want to, i like the car. he then put in a money claim to which i replied agreeing to mediation but not the money difference and then got papers by email that was like a statement his side of the story, it certainly wasnt the truth as he didn't mention the right price we agreed for the merc, the money off or return for the new mot and like i said couldnt stick to correct prices so very confusing. as far as im concerned we discussed the car price, agreed it, transferred the car to my name online, bough the tax, cleared out my car, and he didnt notice the price was wrong? i cant see it myself

The CCBC (County Court Business Centre) does not send out court claims via email. Any claim will be sent by post. Does the form you've received have a claim number and a court stamp? Did you receive the original claim by post?

(I'm thinking he's downloaded a claim form and sent it to you to try and scare you into paying him. If not then I've misread your post).

Littleconfused

photome said:

Littleconfused said:

yes tried to keep it simple but ill explain more. basically we hadnt seen the car advertised prior to this, just advised the garage had whati wanted so I, rang to view it and test drive it, and discussed the part ex more looking back. it was a merc c220, in actual fact he offered £1500 and we declined and he agreed £1750. however, on the receipt he put £1500 which i didnt notice at the time. on the receipt he put car price £6750, part ex £1500, leaves £5250 to pay,  yet on the declaration he sent to the courts it says  the car was advertised at £10490 on autotrader, however, thats irrelevant we didn't see it there for sale, but on the paper work he contradicts the amounts and says the car was £10250 and and sold for £6250, he seems to be just making amounts up as he goes along. he rang me on the way home about 30 mins after i left but was driving, he left a message saying i put the wrong amount on the invoice you owe me £3500, i text and said i will seek advice on this, he then said you haven't paid the full amount im calling the police. i said ok because i have the receipt, but felt intimidated so rang the police for advice. they said it seems strange and that the price we paid isn't obviously wrong and had it of been £2000 or something clearly too low that would be fair enough, and that he would be letting action Fraud know about this as he felt he was trying to scam me out of money. he said bring the car back and take the money but i didnt want to, i like the car. he then put in a money claim to which i replied agreeing to mediation but not the money difference and then got papers by email that was like a statement his side of the story, it certainly wasnt the truth as he didn't mention the right price we agreed for the merc, the money off or return for the new mot and like i said couldnt stick to correct prices so very confusing. as far as im concerned we discussed the car price, agreed it, transferred the car to my name online, bough the tax, cleared out my car, and he didnt notice the price was wrong? i cant see it myself

This post is difficult to read without paragraphs, but one point I think I have seen is that the dealer rang you within 30 minutes of the sale and said there was a mistake and if you returned he would refund you..is that right?

If it is then I think you may struggle to argue that you didn’t know there was a problem

yes he did leave a voicemail saying that, i didnt believe him as i had no reason to doubt what id paid. he cant decide what prices are right and contradicts himself, i just dont believe a professional salesman standing with the car didnt know the correct price, he must of known it was too low if in fact it was, if he didnt know how would i be expected to?

Littleconfused

Were_Doomed said:

Littleconfused said:

yes tried to keep it simple but ill explain more. basically we hadnt seen the car advertised prior to this, just advised the garage had whati wanted so I, rang to view it and test drive it, and discussed the part ex more looking back. it was a merc c220, in actual fact he offered £1500 and we declined and he agreed £1750. however, on the receipt he put £1500 which i didnt notice at the time. on the receipt he put car price £6750, part ex £1500, leaves £5250 to pay,  yet on the declaration he sent to the courts it says  the car was advertised at £10490 on autotrader, however, thats irrelevant we didn't see it there for sale, but on the paper work he contradicts the amounts and says the car was £10250 and and sold for £6250, he seems to be just making amounts up as he goes along. he rang me on the way home about 30 mins after i left but was driving, he left a message saying i put the wrong amount on the invoice you owe me £3500, i text and said i will seek advice on this, he then said you haven't paid the full amount im calling the police. i said ok because i have the receipt, but felt intimidated so rang the police for advice. they said it seems strange and that the price we paid isn't obviously wrong and had it of been £2000 or something clearly too low that would be fair enough, and that he would be letting action Fraud know about this as he felt he was trying to scam me out of money. he said bring the car back and take the money but i didnt want to, i like the car. he then put in a money claim to which i replied agreeing to mediation but not the money difference and then got papers by email that was like a statement his side of the story, it certainly wasnt the truth as he didn't mention the right price we agreed for the merc, the money off or return for the new mot and like i said couldnt stick to correct prices so very confusing. as far as im concerned we discussed the car price, agreed it, transferred the car to my name online, bough the tax, cleared out my car, and he didnt notice the price was wrong? i cant see it myself

The CCBC (County Court Business Centre) does not send out court claims via email. Any claim will be sent by post. Does the form you've received have a claim number and a court stamp? Did you receive the original claim by post?

(I'm thinking he's downloaded a claim form and sent it to you to try and scare you into paying him. If not then I've misread your post).

ahhh, thats interesting, yes there is claim number, and nothing has been recieved in paper form. it says: In the County Court Business Centre Online Civil Money Claim, and has a The county court stamp on the original first notification on the matter.

Manxman_in_exile

What sounds strange is the OP "agrees" a trade-in figure on the Merc, and then asks the salesman something along the lines of "how much does that leave to pay?".  It's as if the OP never actually knew what the total asking price for the Qashqai was - which sounds a bit odd to me(?).  But maybe I'm just more comfortable than the OP at mental arithmetic...

I'm always in two minds on these mistake ones.  I think it's reasonable to expect a second-hand car dealer to know the exact price of what they're selling, and I'm not sure how far the buyer should be expected to second guess what the expert tells them when they ask how much is left to be paid.

Like Carrot007 I think the mileage on the car is so low that I'd be a bit concerned about it and that reduces the value.  The price the OP has paid may be low, but is it wrong?  It's not necessarily clear to me that there's a unilateral mistake here.  Yes, the price may be significantly less than the garage intended to sell it for, but is it so low that the OP should have realised it was a mistake?  Isn't that the point of a unilateral mistake?

Littleconfused

Manxman_in_exile said:

What sounds strange is the OP "agrees" a trade-in figure on the Merc, and then asks the salesman something along the lines of "how much does that leave to pay?".  It's as if the OP never actually knew what the total asking price for the Qashqai was - which sounds a bit odd to me(?).  But maybe I'm just more comfortable than the OP at mental arithmetic...

I'm always in two minds on these mistake ones.  I think it's reasonable to expect a second-hand car dealer to know the exact price of what they're selling, and I'm not sure how far the buyer should be expected to second guess what the expert tells them when they ask how much is left to be paid.

Like Carrot007 I think the mileage on the car is so low that I'd be a bit concerned about it and that reduces the value.  The price the OP has paid may be low, but is it wrong?  It's not necessarily clear to me that there's a unilateral mistake here.  Yes, the price may be significantly less than the garage intended to sell it for, but is it so low that the OP should have realised it was a mistake?  Isn't that the point of a unilateral mistake?

i totally understand it sounds strange i didnt know the price but i just didnt. i assumed my partner knew and just wanted me to view it which i did. the dealer asked did i want to part ex my car, i said yes, and we went through a few negotiations on price and said once we got to £1500 that its ok i can sell it privately, he then said ok £1750 tops, i said ok thats better, so basically what does that leave outstanding for me to pay and he said £5250, which seemed about right with my car, i didnt really think, the fact i had an 8 week old baby in my arms grizzling didnt help with concentration to be honest. between then and leaving was about half an hour, how can he not of realised? i thought aw thats good, i havent cost my boyfriend too much, but never once thought it must be an error.

Aylesbury_Duck

I'm afraid I just don't find your argument plausible, and it becomes less so the more you add to it.  The idea that someone even contemplates buying a car without having the first clue what the asking price is, just sounds unbelievable.  You went to the trouble of haggling on price for your old car (despite supposedly knowing nothing about cars or their value), without once checking the asking price of the new one?  I don't buy that, I'm afraid.  I reckon you knew the sums were out and bit his hand off at £5,250 hoping he wouldn't notice. 

That said, I don't think the dealer has a strong case for the unilateral mistake argument. It looks like his sums are all over the place (which is what I suspect went wrong in the first place) and his muddled account in the 'court papers' he's sent you reinforces that.  As someone else pointed out, it's not certain what you've received is actually a court claim, and may be a tactic to get you back to the table. 

It's up to you whether you defend this claim (if it's real) and then it's up to the court to decide the outcome if that's where it ends up.  If the dealer genuinely made a mistake on the price I'm sure he'll pursue it, because £5k is not a trivial sum.

photome

Littleconfused said:

photome said:

Littleconfused said:

yes tried to keep it simple but ill explain more. basically we hadnt seen the car advertised prior to this, just advised the garage had whati wanted so I, rang to view it and test drive it, and discussed the part ex more looking back. it was a merc c220, in actual fact he offered £1500 and we declined and he agreed £1750. however, on the receipt he put £1500 which i didnt notice at the time. on the receipt he put car price £6750, part ex £1500, leaves £5250 to pay,  yet on the declaration he sent to the courts it says  the car was advertised at £10490 on autotrader, however, thats irrelevant we didn't see it there for sale, but on the paper work he contradicts the amounts and says the car was £10250 and and sold for £6250, he seems to be just making amounts up as he goes along. he rang me on the way home about 30 mins after i left but was driving, he left a message saying i put the wrong amount on the invoice you owe me £3500, i text and said i will seek advice on this, he then said you haven't paid the full amount im calling the police. i said ok because i have the receipt, but felt intimidated so rang the police for advice. they said it seems strange and that the price we paid isn't obviously wrong and had it of been £2000 or something clearly too low that would be fair enough, and that he would be letting action Fraud know about this as he felt he was trying to scam me out of money. he said bring the car back and take the money but i didnt want to, i like the car. he then put in a money claim to which i replied agreeing to mediation but not the money difference and then got papers by email that was like a statement his side of the story, it certainly wasnt the truth as he didn't mention the right price we agreed for the merc, the money off or return for the new mot and like i said couldnt stick to correct prices so very confusing. as far as im concerned we discussed the car price, agreed it, transferred the car to my name online, bough the tax, cleared out my car, and he didnt notice the price was wrong? i cant see it myself

This post is difficult to read without paragraphs, but one point I think I have seen is that the dealer rang you within 30 minutes of the sale and said there was a mistake and if you returned he would refund you..is that right?

If it is then I think you may struggle to argue that you didn’t know there was a problem

yes he did leave a voicemail saying that, i didnt believe him as i had no reason to doubt what id paid. he cant decide what prices are right and contradicts himself, i just dont believe a professional salesman standing with the car didnt know the correct price, he must of known it was too low if in fact it was, if he didnt know how would i be expected to?

Why didnt you go back to him as soon as you got the message and sort it out?
I think this is your stumbling block

bradders1983

photome said:

Littleconfused said:

photome said:

Littleconfused said:

yes tried to keep it simple but ill explain more. basically we hadnt seen the car advertised prior to this, just advised the garage had whati wanted so I, rang to view it and test drive it, and discussed the part ex more looking back. it was a merc c220, in actual fact he offered £1500 and we declined and he agreed £1750. however, on the receipt he put £1500 which i didnt notice at the time. on the receipt he put car price £6750, part ex £1500, leaves £5250 to pay,  yet on the declaration he sent to the courts it says  the car was advertised at £10490 on autotrader, however, thats irrelevant we didn't see it there for sale, but on the paper work he contradicts the amounts and says the car was £10250 and and sold for £6250, he seems to be just making amounts up as he goes along. he rang me on the way home about 30 mins after i left but was driving, he left a message saying i put the wrong amount on the invoice you owe me £3500, i text and said i will seek advice on this, he then said you haven't paid the full amount im calling the police. i said ok because i have the receipt, but felt intimidated so rang the police for advice. they said it seems strange and that the price we paid isn't obviously wrong and had it of been £2000 or something clearly too low that would be fair enough, and that he would be letting action Fraud know about this as he felt he was trying to scam me out of money. he said bring the car back and take the money but i didnt want to, i like the car. he then put in a money claim to which i replied agreeing to mediation but not the money difference and then got papers by email that was like a statement his side of the story, it certainly wasnt the truth as he didn't mention the right price we agreed for the merc, the money off or return for the new mot and like i said couldnt stick to correct prices so very confusing. as far as im concerned we discussed the car price, agreed it, transferred the car to my name online, bough the tax, cleared out my car, and he didnt notice the price was wrong? i cant see it myself

This post is difficult to read without paragraphs, but one point I think I have seen is that the dealer rang you within 30 minutes of the sale and said there was a mistake and if you returned he would refund you..is that right?

If it is then I think you may struggle to argue that you didn’t know there was a problem

yes he did leave a voicemail saying that, i didnt believe him as i had no reason to doubt what id paid. he cant decide what prices are right and contradicts himself, i just dont believe a professional salesman standing with the car didnt know the correct price, he must of known it was too low if in fact it was, if he didnt know how would i be expected to?

Why didnt you go back to him as soon as you got the message and sort it out?
I think this is your stumbling block

Because she knew she would have to pay an extra five grand, and she didnt have that kind of money, so she ignored it in the hope of getting away with it.

Just call me Columbo.