Filling in probate form

alibill

Hi Everyone. This is my first post. I am somewhat confused with a particular part of the probate form IHT205, giving HMRC details of my mum's estate. Someone tried to advise me, but I am not sure if it is right? Mum passed away in July and dad is still alive. I have lived with my parents all my life. Mum left me her half of her estate in her will. They were tenants in common on the land registry, but had a joint bank account. If I have been left her half of the estate in her will, (I am an only child) in theory that means her half of the property and half the bank account etc? I was told to fill in question 9.2, explained as 'Deceased's share of a joint assets passing automatically to the surviving joint owner': in this case my dad.  I think I should be filling in question 11.1 explained as cash, including money in banks etc. In the footnotes it says 'the deceased's share of jointly owned assets not passing automatically to the surviving joint partner. Basically because half the money in the bank has been willed to me as part of her estate. 9.2 is for assets added to the estate for inheritance Tax for which a grant of representation is not required. However, 11.1 is for deceased's own assets for which a grant of representation is required. I don't want to incur a penalty for incorrect filling of the form and at the same time her estate is about as simple as can be, hence trying to do probate myself. Thank you for taking the time to read this and wondered if anyone else has had to deal with this scenario. 

naedanger

alibill said:

Hi Everyone. This is my first post. I am somewhat confused with a particular part of the probate form IHT205, giving HMRC details of my mum's estate. Someone tried to advise me, but I am not sure if it is right? Mum passed away in July and dad is still alive. I have lived with my parents all my life. Mum left me her half of her estate in her will. They were tenants in common on the land registry, but had a joint bank account. If I have been left her half of the estate in her will, (I am an only child) in theory that means her half of the property and half the bank account etc? I was told to fill in question 9.2, explained as 'Deceased's share of a joint assets passing automatically to the surviving joint owner': in this case my dad.  I think I should be filling in question 11.1 explained as cash, including money in banks etc. In the footnotes it says 'the deceased's share of jointly owned assets not passing automatically to the surviving joint partner. Basically because half the money in the bank has been willed to me as part of her estate. 9.2 is for assets added to the estate for inheritance Tax for which a grant of representation is not required. However, 11.1 is for deceased's own assets for which a grant of representation is required. I don't want to incur a penalty for incorrect filling of the form and at the same time her estate is about as simple as can be, hence trying to do probate myself. Thank you for taking the time to read this and wondered if anyone else has had to deal with this scenario. 

Are you the executor for your late mother's estate?
Which country do you live in? Scotland, England, Wales or NI?
The estate is just what your mother owned. So does the will say you inherit half of her estate? If so then you are inheriting a quarter of the property i.e. half of her half. Your father is inheriting a quarter as well bringing his share to three quarters.
If you live in England then I believe the jointly owned bank assets will pass fully to your father via him surviving your mother. 
Are there any other assets? If not then I don't think you need to apply for probate at all.  

alibill

Thank you for your comment naedanger. Myself and my father are executors. I live in England. Her will states that I will receive the residue of her estate after any debts, funeral and testamentary expenses. The only other assets are household belongings, including jewellery etc.   

naedanger

alibill said:

Thank you for your comment naedanger. Myself and my father are executors. I live in England. Her will states that I will receive the residue of her estate after any debts, funeral and testamentary expenses. The only other assets are household belongings, including jewellery etc.   

In that case I believe you don't need to apply for probate.
If your father goes to the bank with the death certificate he should be able to get the joint account(s) put into his sole name.
You should get the house deeds updated to reflect the new ownership. I believe this doesn't need probate and can be done without a solicitor with a bit of effort. Hopefully someone more knowlegeable will reply on this point. (I believe it is advisable to update the property documents.)
The simplest arrangement would seem to be for your father to pay for the funeral, debts etc and you agree ownership of any possessions (if this is important given you live with your father). 
Then I don't think there is any more you need to do with the estate.

PS If your mother's will is leaving all her share of the property to you then you will now own a half of the property (and not a quarter as I suggested might be the case in my previous post).
Also you should still write to HMRC (amongst others) to tell them of your late mother's death if have not done so already.

alibill

Once again naedanger, thanks for replying. I may well have found the answer. I believe a joint bank account can be set up as a tenants in common account just like with property. That would give me the right to half of my parents account. This was never set up, so the account does go dad in full. That of course is not a problem, but with regard to her 50% share of the property going to me in her will and certain belongings, and her estate coming in at about £235,000 net, surely I will have to obtain probate in order to inherit?      

naedanger

alibill said:

Once again naedanger, thanks for replying. I may well have found the answer. I believe a joint bank account can be set up as a tenants in common account just like with property. That would give me the right to half of my parents account. This was never set up, so the account does go dad in full. That of course is not a problem, but with regard to her 50% share of the property going to me in her will and certain belongings, and her estate coming in at about £235,000 net, surely I will have to obtain probate in order to inherit?      

No, I don't think so. It is the will (not probate) that gives you the right and power to inherit. As far as I am aware, probate is just to give those holding property in the name of the deceased official confirmation that they can release the assets to the executor. However often those holding assets don't need this assurance and they will release the assets up to their own internal limits based on other documents - the death certificate and usually the will and personal identification documents for the executor. So an executor only needs to apply for probate if someone holding assets of the deceased insists on seeing it (as is their right).

In your case  you obviously don't need probate to access the possessions. I also believe (but I am not certain)  that so long as one of the property owners is still alive you don't need probate to update the ownership records. (I will see if I can find any other posts on this last point.)

naedanger

Please see the following link regarding what happens on the death of an owner of a property held as tenants in common.
https://www.land-registry-documents.co.uk/information/joint-ownership-tennants/
It is a bit complicated and you need to understand the distinction between legal ownership and beneficial ownership. However it seems the bottom line is probate is not needed provided one of the owners is alive even if the property was held on a joint tenants basis. However I think I would employee a solicitor to ensure the property registration details are updated to reflect your ownership share.  

alibill

Again, thank you for spending your time answering my questions. I think that things are a little clearer now.