Management company and landlord are claiming my cellar belongs to them.

Journodig

 We are a Victorian conversion made up of three flats. I own a GF flat with a cellar  - access is via my hallway. My lease clearly states "The ground floor flat...including the ceilings ,the floors and the room below the stairs" belongs to the leaseholder. The room below the stairs is the cellar. We are in the process of selling. Our management company is called Circle Residential Management and we've been dealing with Mr Martin Paine. Our landlord is Estival Ltd - Mr Amyn Nazerali is the director (and of other several management companies owning freehold of many properties across London and England). Mr Paine is an ex-director of Estival Ltd too. We asked for the leaseholder pack but Mr Paine from Circle Residential Management has told us we need to pay the freeholder 30k for the cellar as Estival Ltd own the cellar. Our solicitor has pointed out the lease and that the "room" or what we refer to as cellar belongs to us, the leaseholder. This falls on deaf ears. Mr Paine has sent a revised "Standard Replies to Enquires" for our buyer which differs from the one we received at the time we purchased the flat as he has added a clause (btw lease remains unchanged - still reads "the room below stairs part of the property" etc etc" that says "Non-Demised Cellars - It should be noted that the cellar to the property is not demised to any particular flat and that the landlord has not granted any rights to the tenants over this area, the landlord has reserved and asserts his/their full rights over this area. The landlord may be willing to demise this area to a tenant; all enquiries regarding this should be made via our Legal Dept" - this seems illegal to me. This clause is NOT on our "Standard Replies to Enquiries" but now appears on a revised version our solicitor needs to give to our buyer. Obviously we are people with good conscience and have made our buyer's solicitors aware. 

1a. What legal rights does Circle Residential Management have to add clauses to statement of enquiries?

1b. What legal claim does Eestival Ltd to the cellar given the lease was written up by original proprietors making it clear what seems clear to me the cellar is part of my property and the freehold then sold to Estival Ltd ?

1c. Isn't there a conflict of interest as Mr Paine works for the freeholder yet on the freeholder company (or at least was until resigned - Estival Ltd) he has served as a Director? How is he separated from the landlord/freeholder (Estival Ltd) because he appears on their company records therefore serving his own interests?

1d. The wording of the lease "The ground floor flat...including the ceilings ,the floors and the room below the stairs" makes it clear that the room below the stairs is what we call a cellar - can Mr Paine offer clarification what the "room" refers to in the case of the lease if it's not the cellar?? How is he defining “room” that is in the wording of the lease?

1e. Can he tell us how he proposes to physically differentiate between the “room under the stairs”, which clearly belongs to us, to the “cellar” he is suggesting belongs to the landlord?

Does the landlord and management company have any legal case here?

Apologies for the length  - any advice would really help. Thanks in advance. 

[Deleted User]

Journodig said:

1d. The wording of the lease "The ground floor flat...including the ceilings ,the floors and the room below the stairs" makes it clear that the room below the stairs is what we call a cellar 

I'm not sure it does.  It would be an odd phrase to use, unless it is a very narrow strip of cellar.

Is there space - or 'room' - beneath the stairs? Eg a cupboard or storage area?

daveyjp

If this lease had a plan with your demised shown edged this wouldn't be an issue.

A room under the stairs could be a room which is actually under the stairs.

https://home.by.me/en/academy/post/making-the-under-stairs-space-feel-like-a-whole-new-room

Do you have anything like this?

If not ask the landlord to show you the mythical room under the stairs.

Journodig

Deleted_User said:

Journodig said:

1d. The wording of the lease "The ground floor flat...including the ceilings ,the floors and the room below the stairs" makes it clear that the room below the stairs is what we call a cellar 

I'm not sure it does.  It would be an odd phrase to use, unless it is a very narrow strip of cellar.

Is there space - or 'room' - beneath the stairs? Eg a cupboard or storage area?

Hi. There is no cupboard under the stairs to the cellar. Its a narrow space (6 x 1.3) an old coal cellar - low ceiling, no window, no fire escape, dank, dark and used for storage. Thanks 

eddddy

Normally there should be a lease plan (like a floor plan) that shows the extent of the flat. If it includes the cellar, that should be shown.

"The room below the stairs" seems like a strange phrase. It doesn't sound like a good description of a cellar.

Just a thought - are there stairs going up to the first floor flat(s), and do you have some kind of room under those stairs? That might make slightly more sense. For example, the area above the sloping staircase belongs to the first floor flat, and the area below the sloping staircase belongs to your ground floor flat.

princeofpounds

I agree - it is not at all clear that the room below the stairs refers to the cellar. These are kind of repeated questions, but some posed in a slightly different way:

- What exactly *is* below the stairs? You assert it is the cellar, but the layout isn't evident to us from your description. Any chance of a photo? Is it simply a set of steps down to the cellar?
- Are there more than one set of stairs at ground floor level, even outside the flat?
- Is there a plan for the leasehold?

On the plus side, these guys are never going to get their 30k... It's not like there is another buyer for it even if it isn't demised to your lease.

Journodig

princeofpounds said:

I agree - it is not at all clear that the room below the stairs refers to the cellar. These are kind of repeated questions, but some posed in a slightly different way:

- What exactly *is* below the stairs? You assert it is the cellar, but the layout isn't evident to us from your description. Any chance of a photo? Is it simply a set of steps down to the cellar?
- Are there more than one set of stairs at ground floor level, even outside the flat?
- Is there a plan for the leasehold?

On the plus side, these guys are never going to get their 30k... It's not like there is another buyer for it even if it isn't demised to your lease.

Hi.  I am a ground floor flat and from my hallway there is a short staircase down to the "room". Space is narrow and small. The lease reads (this was written up back in the late 80's btw) "ALL THAT place or parcel of land shown on the plan annexed hereto and thereron edged red together with the flat (hereinafter called the "flat") numbered (my door number) and being on the ground floor of the building (including the ceilings of the flat, but not the floor of the flat above it) and the internal and external walls of the flat up to the same level and the doors door frames windows and window frames solely serving the flat the cupboard under the stairs and the foundations beneath the same and together with the garden areas shown on the said plan coloured green...." There is a set of stairs in the communal hall way leading up to the first floor flat. The area under those stairs is part of my flat.

[Deleted User]

Journodig said:

princeofpounds said:

I agree - it is not at all clear that the room below the stairs refers to the cellar. These are kind of repeated questions, but some posed in a slightly different way:

- What exactly *is* below the stairs? You assert it is the cellar, but the layout isn't evident to us from your description. Any chance of a photo? Is it simply a set of steps down to the cellar?
- Are there more than one set of stairs at ground floor level, even outside the flat?
- Is there a plan for the leasehold?

On the plus side, these guys are never going to get their 30k... It's not like there is another buyer for it even if it isn't demised to your lease.

There is a set of stairs in the communal hall way leading up to the first floor flat. The area under those stairs is part of my flat.

That's what I would imagine the 'room under the stairs' to refer to.  

The cellar isn't the room below the stairs that lead to the cellar.

Grumpy_chap

Your solicitor should be able to resolve this simply.  What do the land registry records show?

Journodig

Grumpy_chap said:

Your solicitor should be able to resolve this simply.  What do the land registry records show?

Hi. The land registry shows the areas edged in red. Thanks

Journodig

Deleted_User said:

Journodig said:

princeofpounds said:

I agree - it is not at all clear that the room below the stairs refers to the cellar. These are kind of repeated questions, but some posed in a slightly different way:

- What exactly *is* below the stairs? You assert it is the cellar, but the layout isn't evident to us from your description. Any chance of a photo? Is it simply a set of steps down to the cellar?
- Are there more than one set of stairs at ground floor level, even outside the flat?
- Is there a plan for the leasehold?

On the plus side, these guys are never going to get their 30k... It's not like there is another buyer for it even if it isn't demised to your lease.

There is a set of stairs in the communal hall way leading up to the first floor flat. The area under those stairs is part of my flat.

That's what I would imagine the 'room under the stairs' to refer to.  

The cellar isn't the room below the stairs that lead to the cellar.

The cellar is not excluded from the lease nor mentioned as a cellar nor does it say belongs to the landlord. It is and always has been relying on utilities (electricity and heating) connected to my flat. Access to it is via my flat.The cellar needed repairs some years ago and we were given permission to do so by the landlord and they didn't inform us that they own the cellar therefore liable for all repairs. The stairs to the cellar are connected to my property - there is no mention of stairs up to the first floor property and on the plan shows the stairs to the cellar as a coloured area belonging to my property.