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Advice needed for a fitted kitchen with many defects and issues
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richardc1983
Posts: 2,163 Forumite
Hello everyone, I am really sorry for the long post below but I wanted to be clear and factual.
We approached an independent company (https://www.jctinteriors.co.uk/) for a new kitchen fitted and wanted a company that do the full work from design to supply and fit. They designed us a kitchen, supplied the units and they arranged one of their fitters who is self-employed to do the work. We paid 6k of the 11k total on a credit card, the rest went to the fitter for him to pay his labourers such as tiler/electrician etc. JCT provided a fully inclusive service from design to fitting (as per their website below). We went to them, asked for a new kitchen, they came out designed one, we agreed the design, chose the kitchen, they then attended site again with two fitters who gave a price to the designer and she chose the best price which she thought was reasonable. They then provided a quote for the kitchen to include the installation cost. They asked us to pay the fitter for the fitting direct as he would need to pay his materials and also his labourers such as plumber and electrician.
We were advised a 3-week fit but despite starting in June 2019 it was completed in September 2019 albeit with issues still remaining but by that point, we just wanted the fitter offsite. We tried to resolve with the company but wasn't getting anywhere fast. Long and short of it is in December we noticed worktops dropping and tiles coming loose, we had independent joiners out who have looked at the kitchen and found lots of issues such as worktops not fitted properly, plug sockets not straight. Holes in cupboards where they were fitted wrong, worktops cut too short, a very long extensive list of defects, some of which have been uncovered by other joiners who have attended such as end panels missing or worktops not sealed or batoned properly, it's been like opening a can of worms.
In April this year we approached them again asking them to put the issues right, they blame the fitter and say we have no apparent come back to JCT as the fitter is self-employed, even though they supplied him and he represented JCT... we didn't go out and buy a kitchen from B&Q like some do and find a joiner to fit it for you. We didn't want any of that additional stress.
The new Managing Director of JCT came out in May time and agreed with the state of the tiling and agreed to go away and speak to the fitter. They agreed that the tiling would need to come off and be done again properly, the issue with the worktops would need a section of work replacing and enough space created properly for the washing machine which does not fit. We reluctantly agreed that for them to put all these issues right that we would cover the first day's labour and the original fitter would provide the new worktop and wall tiles along with the rest of the labour. The Managing Director appeared to suggest he was doing us a favour coming out to see the kitchen and try to put it right even though we had threatened to go to our credit card company, he turned around and told us that it is the fitter at fault and that we have no come back on JCT, even though they quoted us for the installation and that is clear on the invoice and from the promotion of their kitchen services on their website. He said that we should take the fitter to court and that is how we would pursue it.
They arranged a date for the original fitter to attend to come back and rectify and told us to choose new wall tiles etc. We booked just after this for our new kitchen floor to be laid and a decorator to come after the kitchen work had been done. However, 2 days before the date of JCT coming we were told by the fitter that he didn't have us booked in and that he could not say when he could come and it would be long after Christmas, despite having this been arranged by the managing director and him. This obvious really angered us and we had to cancel the other workmen who were coming which we felt really bad as it was then too late for them to arrange other works.
We formally at this point rejected the full kitchen as well as having anything to do with the original fitter again. The other joiners who attended said they were not comfortable with the number of issues and wanted to strip back the kitchen far enough that they could warranty their own work, and also the joiner we had quote could not get the same style of worktop from his supplier which would mean all the worktops would need replacing to match. This obviously means the costs would be higher than if JCT were to put right the issues themselves using their own labour and supply chain. We also left negative reviews on their social media and google pages of which prompted us getting a threat of them suing us for slander even though we have it all in black and white and with pictures to back it up. At this point, they agreed if we took them down they would get another fitter out to come and look at what was needed.
A different fitter attended from JCT, found all the issues plus some more and has submitted a labour cost back (£1500) to the Managing Director to rectify. This fitter also told us that this isn't the first one he has been asked to go out and look at that another fitter has messed up at JCT. The MD has then gone back to the original fitter and told him that this is the labour cost at which point the original fitter has said he will not cover the labour cost and will only cover the materials (worktop/tiles). So we are now back to square one, the different fitter pencilled us in for 2 weeks time assuming that the original fitter would be picking up the bill and we have arranged the other tradespersons to attend the following week to complete other works for us. We have opened a claim with the credit card company who think this is a Section 75 but I wanted to know where we stand. JCT does not seem bothered at all by us saying we will go to the credit card company and even with us raising the consumer credit act they still reiterate that we have no come back on them.
Cost from other independent joiners is looking at approx 4-5k to put right given the amount of work needed and new worktops as wall cupboards need to come off to fit missing end panels etc.
Please help us understand where we stand. Invoice and screenshots from their website below as to what we thought we was getting...
We approached an independent company (https://www.jctinteriors.co.uk/) for a new kitchen fitted and wanted a company that do the full work from design to supply and fit. They designed us a kitchen, supplied the units and they arranged one of their fitters who is self-employed to do the work. We paid 6k of the 11k total on a credit card, the rest went to the fitter for him to pay his labourers such as tiler/electrician etc. JCT provided a fully inclusive service from design to fitting (as per their website below). We went to them, asked for a new kitchen, they came out designed one, we agreed the design, chose the kitchen, they then attended site again with two fitters who gave a price to the designer and she chose the best price which she thought was reasonable. They then provided a quote for the kitchen to include the installation cost. They asked us to pay the fitter for the fitting direct as he would need to pay his materials and also his labourers such as plumber and electrician.
We were advised a 3-week fit but despite starting in June 2019 it was completed in September 2019 albeit with issues still remaining but by that point, we just wanted the fitter offsite. We tried to resolve with the company but wasn't getting anywhere fast. Long and short of it is in December we noticed worktops dropping and tiles coming loose, we had independent joiners out who have looked at the kitchen and found lots of issues such as worktops not fitted properly, plug sockets not straight. Holes in cupboards where they were fitted wrong, worktops cut too short, a very long extensive list of defects, some of which have been uncovered by other joiners who have attended such as end panels missing or worktops not sealed or batoned properly, it's been like opening a can of worms.
In April this year we approached them again asking them to put the issues right, they blame the fitter and say we have no apparent come back to JCT as the fitter is self-employed, even though they supplied him and he represented JCT... we didn't go out and buy a kitchen from B&Q like some do and find a joiner to fit it for you. We didn't want any of that additional stress.
The new Managing Director of JCT came out in May time and agreed with the state of the tiling and agreed to go away and speak to the fitter. They agreed that the tiling would need to come off and be done again properly, the issue with the worktops would need a section of work replacing and enough space created properly for the washing machine which does not fit. We reluctantly agreed that for them to put all these issues right that we would cover the first day's labour and the original fitter would provide the new worktop and wall tiles along with the rest of the labour. The Managing Director appeared to suggest he was doing us a favour coming out to see the kitchen and try to put it right even though we had threatened to go to our credit card company, he turned around and told us that it is the fitter at fault and that we have no come back on JCT, even though they quoted us for the installation and that is clear on the invoice and from the promotion of their kitchen services on their website. He said that we should take the fitter to court and that is how we would pursue it.
They arranged a date for the original fitter to attend to come back and rectify and told us to choose new wall tiles etc. We booked just after this for our new kitchen floor to be laid and a decorator to come after the kitchen work had been done. However, 2 days before the date of JCT coming we were told by the fitter that he didn't have us booked in and that he could not say when he could come and it would be long after Christmas, despite having this been arranged by the managing director and him. This obvious really angered us and we had to cancel the other workmen who were coming which we felt really bad as it was then too late for them to arrange other works.
We formally at this point rejected the full kitchen as well as having anything to do with the original fitter again. The other joiners who attended said they were not comfortable with the number of issues and wanted to strip back the kitchen far enough that they could warranty their own work, and also the joiner we had quote could not get the same style of worktop from his supplier which would mean all the worktops would need replacing to match. This obviously means the costs would be higher than if JCT were to put right the issues themselves using their own labour and supply chain. We also left negative reviews on their social media and google pages of which prompted us getting a threat of them suing us for slander even though we have it all in black and white and with pictures to back it up. At this point, they agreed if we took them down they would get another fitter out to come and look at what was needed.
A different fitter attended from JCT, found all the issues plus some more and has submitted a labour cost back (£1500) to the Managing Director to rectify. This fitter also told us that this isn't the first one he has been asked to go out and look at that another fitter has messed up at JCT. The MD has then gone back to the original fitter and told him that this is the labour cost at which point the original fitter has said he will not cover the labour cost and will only cover the materials (worktop/tiles). So we are now back to square one, the different fitter pencilled us in for 2 weeks time assuming that the original fitter would be picking up the bill and we have arranged the other tradespersons to attend the following week to complete other works for us. We have opened a claim with the credit card company who think this is a Section 75 but I wanted to know where we stand. JCT does not seem bothered at all by us saying we will go to the credit card company and even with us raising the consumer credit act they still reiterate that we have no come back on them.
Cost from other independent joiners is looking at approx 4-5k to put right given the amount of work needed and new worktops as wall cupboards need to come off to fit missing end panels etc.
Please help us understand where we stand. Invoice and screenshots from their website below as to what we thought we was getting...
If you found my post helpful, please remember to press the THANKS button! --->
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Comments
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What a mess. I don't think you have helped yourself by not distinguishing from the outset what your relationship is with each of the supplier.
You say you paid for the JCT £6k and the balance to the fitter.
What value and services do you have a written quotes for? Who prepared the quotes?
What value and services do you have an invoices for? Who prepared the invoices?
My gut feeling is that you have two separate contracts. One for supply of kitchen, and one for fitting.
The fitting sounds like a cash in hand job, and I suspect your going to tell us you don't have any addresses for the fitter. (Because I expect he didn't give you an invoice or quote)My farts hospitalize small children
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Sorry, I should have been clearer, JCT provided a full fit service from design to fitting. We went to them, asked for a new kitchen, they came out designed one, we agreed the design, chose the kitchen, they then attended site again with two fitters who gave a price to the designer and she chose the best price which she thought was reasonable. They then provided a quote for the kitchen to include the installation cost. They asked us to pay the fitter for the fitting direct as he would need to pay his materials and also his labourers such as plumber and electrician. Hopefully, the invoice screenshot and screenshots from their website explains better and what they are selling.dreamypuma said:What a mess. I don't think you have helped yourself by not distinguishing from the outset what your relationship is with each of the supplier.
You say you paid for the JCT £6k and the balance to the fitter.
What value and services do you have a written quotes for? Who prepared the quotes?
What value and services do you have an invoices for? Who prepared the invoices?
My gut feeling is that you have two separate contracts. One for supply of kitchen, and one for fitting.
The fitting sounds like a cash in hand job, and I suspect your going to tell us you don't have any addresses for the fitter.
If you found my post helpful, please remember to press the THANKS button! --->0 -
How about invoices? You don't need to post copies on here. Just what invoices were prepared by who and what for.
My farts hospitalize small children0 -
That's the only invoice type we have which was prepared by JCT.dreamypuma said:How about invoices? You don't need to post copies on here. Just what invoices were prepared by who and what for.If you found my post helpful, please remember to press the THANKS button! --->0 -
Ok, the paying of the fitter direct blurs things a bit, but assuming this invoice is legit. It seems to indicate that you have paid JCT for supply and fit.
In my mind any claim you have is with JCT and not the fitter.
I would contact your credit card company, advising that you are looking for a resolution under Section 75. Advise them that you made part payment of £6k of the invoiced total of £10.6k
My farts hospitalize small children1 -
Thanks for taking the time out to read through and reply.dreamypuma said:Ok, the paying of the fitter direct blurs things a bit, but assuming this invoice is legit. It seems to indicate that you have paid JCT for supply and fit.
In my mind any claim you have is with JCT and not the fitter.
I would contact your credit card company, advising that you are looking for a resolution under Section 75. Advise them that you made part payment of £6k of the invoiced total of £10.6k
Yes the invoice is legit I have just not included the invoice numbers and addresses etc.
That was our thinking and from what advice we got elsewhere.
We submitted a section 75 with our CC it's just a long wait of 45 days presently.
I don't know how they get away with denying all responsibility when their website advertises the full experience. Yes the fitter might be self employed but he is their fitter.If you found my post helpful, please remember to press the THANKS button! --->0 -
My take on this , disagreeing with dreamypumarichardc1983 said:
Thanks for taking the time out to read through and reply.dreamypuma said:Ok, the paying of the fitter direct blurs things a bit, but assuming this invoice is legit. It seems to indicate that you have paid JCT for supply and fit.
In my mind any claim you have is with JCT and not the fitter.
I would contact your credit card company, advising that you are looking for a resolution under Section 75. Advise them that you made part payment of £6k of the invoiced total of £10.6k
Yes the invoice is legit I have just not included the invoice numbers and addresses etc.
That was our thinking and from what advice we got elsewhere.
We submitted a section 75 with our CC it's just a long wait of 45 days presently.
I don't know how they get away with denying all responsibility when their website advertises the full experience. Yes the fitter might be self employed but he is their fitter.
Your problem is that that screenshot may be an invoice and a quote , possibly invoicing for £5842.79 but clearly quoting by using the word approx £4780.00 as an optional extra
So I think I am correct in saying you have no invoice for the £4780.00 because you effectively declined their quote and instead paid a third party albeit suggested by them.
You are going to struggle with this I fear.
I think to be certain we need to see the final invoice 28229 which must not contain the word approx as including this will not amuse HMRC
It seems improbable that JCT will get you to do a cash job with the fitter and then be liable to the tax and VAT to HMRC themselves by virtue of issuing an invoice that includes this.0 -
We submitted a section 75 with our CC it's just a long wait of 45 days presently.That sounds more like they're processing a Chargeback request rather than a Section 75 claim?0
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Due to Covid they are inundated apparently.Were_Doomed said:We submitted a section 75 with our CC it's just a long wait of 45 days presently.That sounds more like they're processing a Chargeback request rather than a Section 75 claim?If you found my post helpful, please remember to press the THANKS button! --->0 -
A chargeback request (which is merely a voluntary scheme with no legal backing) can be challenged by the supplier so there's no guarantee you'll get anything back. Section 75 is legal protection which makes the credit provider jointly liable with the supplier for the performance of the contract - any claim you have against the supplier you have an equal claim against the credit provider. That's generally why credit providers try to push the chargeback route - it's less likely to cost them.0
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