Paid 2 months rent upfront and deposit

bella2555

Hello,
Looking for some help!
So I just moved into a 2 bed property myself and my 2 Yr old son. I was told that prior to moving in I had to pay 2 months rent upfront and deposit altogether I paid £3600. (Also needed a guarantor)
On the day of moving and signing the contract I asked out of curiosity when will my rent be due? Mine you I moved in on the 23rd of October.. expecting it to be December 23rd. The landlord then said your next rent is due November 23rd. I was in shock a bit because I thought I paid 2 months rent already, I then called the letting agent who said the landlord has written her own tenancy agreement and they think she's allowed to do that. All I want to know is what the rest of the £2400 is for if its not for the rent or deposit. Also I've only been here for 5 days in October is she allowed to charge full months rent for that? (Sorry first time renting) not to mention I've had to stay in a hotel most of the month because the toilet wasn't fitted on moving day, no carpet, kitchen not finished etc 
I am worried with what to do because I can't get any answers for the LL or the letting agency. Thank you for your help 🙏 

Comms69

Ask your landlord. 

What do you mean full rent for october?? Rent isnt 1st-31st exclusive it can be any 2 dates e.g. 10-9, 17-16, etc. 

It sounds like it's a first and last months rent situation. What does your tenancy say?

princeofpounds

Hi Bella.

What does your contract say about payment of rent? 

The root problem appears to be a misunderstanding about the nature of rent in advance:
- You pay month 1 and month 2, then assumed you don't pay anything until month 3.
- The landlord receives month 1 and month 2, then assumed you pay month 3 in month 1, month 4 in month 2 etc. Then, assuming it is a one year contract, you stop paying in month 10, when you pay month 12's rent.

Other structures are possible but less common. Your contract should specify how and when rent is to be paid - legally that is all that matters.

However, there is also the issue of if the contract is badly drafted and effectively silent on these matters. If you upset the landlord, you may find that your tenancy is terminated at the end of the fixed term, or that they create friction in your relationship, so it is worth considering these 'soft' factors as well as the legal position. Either way you end up in the same situation at the end of the tenancy, so you may decide to agree with the landlord, particularly if you are happy with the property and rental cost.

As for the '5 days in October' issue...The short answer is look at your contract. The longer answer is: whilst other structures are possible, you are probably in the following situation:
- The tenancy has a start date (26th Oct I presume), and a monthly period. 
- Each monthly period runs from the 26th of a month to the 25th of the following month.
- You are required to pay rent for a monthly period in full, in advance (details TBC given the previous points discussed).
- Calendar months (i.e. 1st November-30th November) are not relevant to you. Except in the sense that time passes of course!

You do not pay 5 days of rent for the first month and 25 or 26 days of rent for the last month. When it comes to the end of your tenancy - again assuming that it is a 12 month contract - the fixed term expiry date will be 25th October 2021. Not the end of September of October.

Hope that helps.

Has your deposit been properly protected in an approved scheme and were you given the relevant information? 

bella2555

Comms69 said:

Ask your landlord. 

What do you mean full rent for october?? Rent isnt 1st-31st exclusive it can be any 2 dates e.g. 10-9, 17-16, etc. 

It sounds like it's a first and last months rent situation. What does your tenancy say?

Oh I see thank you sorry I didn't understand.

It does not say the first and last months rent situation on the contract at all. That's why I was abit confused, ask for asking the landlord I have already and she said rent is due next month. When I paid two months rent I expect it to be two months rent in advance but clearly if its the first and last month situation it should of been clearly stated. 

bella2555

princeofpounds said:

Hi Bella.

What does your contract say about payment of rent? 

The root problem appears to be a misunderstanding about the nature of rent in advance:
- You pay month 1 and month 2, then assumed you don't pay anything until month 3.
- The landlord receives month 1 and month 2, then assumed you pay month 3 in month 1, month 4 in month 2 etc. Then, assuming it is a one year contract, you stop paying in month 10, when you pay month 12's rent.

Other structures are possible but less common. Your contract should specify how and when rent is to be paid - legally that is all that matters.

However, there is also the issue of if the contract is badly drafted and effectively silent on these matters. If you upset the landlord, you may find that your tenancy is terminated at the end of the fixed term, or that they create friction in your relationship, so it is worth considering these 'soft' factors as well as the legal position. Either way you end up in the same situation at the end of the tenancy, so you may decide to agree with the landlord, particularly if you are happy with the property and rental cost.

As for the '5 days in October' issue...The short answer is look at your contract. The longer answer is: whilst other structures are possible, you are probably in the following situation:
- The tenancy has a start date (26th Oct I presume), and a monthly period. 
- Each monthly period runs from the 26th of a month to the 25th of the following month.
- You are required to pay rent for a monthly period in full, in advance (details TBC given the previous points discussed).
- Calendar months (i.e. 1st November-30th November) are not relevant to you. Except in the sense that time passes of course!

You do not pay 5 days of rent for the first month and 25 or 26 days of rent for the last month. When it comes to the end of your tenancy - again assuming that it is a 12 month contract - the fixed term expiry date will be 25th October 2021. Not the end of September of October.

Hope that helps.

Has your deposit been properly protected in an approved scheme and were you given the relevant information? 

Hey,

Thank you for your help and time.

I agree I really do want to keep on good terms with my landlord so that I can renew the tenancy. The contract states 23rd April would be the renewal or end of tenancy. 

The only problem I have is I really thought I was covering October & November and that it never was on my tenancy agreement, even if it is the first and last month cover it should of said on the agreement?
I've been trying to contact the LL but I really hate asking constantly about it. 

I've had no deposit information or anything I even checked if its in a protected scheme and it wasn't showing up yet. 

princeofpounds

Hi Bella. What does your contract actually say on these topics - can you please quote it verbatim?

Start Date? 24th?
Period? monthly?
End date and/or fixed term? 23rd April and 6 months?
All the relevant words please! 

Comms69

bella2555 said:

Comms69 said:

Ask your landlord. 

What do you mean full rent for october?? Rent isnt 1st-31st exclusive it can be any 2 dates e.g. 10-9, 17-16, etc. 

It sounds like it's a first and last months rent situation. What does your tenancy say?

Oh I see thank you sorry I didn't understand.

It does not say the first and last months rent situation on the contract at all. That's why I was abit confused, ask for asking the landlord I have already and she said rent is due next month. When I paid two months rent I expect it to be two months rent in advance but clearly if its the first and last month situation it should of been clearly stated. 

Well it should be but it isnt. You can argue it ofcourse; there's nothing the landlord can do about it at all. So it's entirely up to you if you pay rent in november or not. 

bella2555

princeofpounds said:

Hi Bella. What does your contract actually say on these topics - can you please quote it verbatim?

Start Date? 24th?
Period? monthly?
End date and/or fixed term? 23rd April and 6 months?
All the relevant words please! 

Sure!
Start date: 23rd October 2020
Assured shorthold tenancy agreement
Term: 23rd October 2020 ends 22nd April 2021
Rent due 23rd of every month. 
Also states:
Tenant to make a two months payment of rent in advance upon the commencement and continue to pay from 5th September 2020 (not sure why it says September as I moved in October but please correct me if she's made a mistake) 

oldbikebloke

what does your tenancy agreement say about the deposit? (please quote verbatim)

given what you say the agent has said about the LL, at face value it appears:
- your LL is a chancer / ignorant and your experience so far may not be the only time you'll find where they do not follow the law  
- the rules for registering a deposit are easily found and rigidly applied by a court if it comes to that (no protected deposit means LL cannot evict you on a "no fault" "section 21" basis in case you did not know)
- taking 2 months rent and saying it covers first and last month's is a grey area and patently cannot stand if the contract is, as you show, silent on the matter. The courts penalise LL who attempt top take "disguised deposits" in the form advance rent particularly since there is an absolute celling that no deposit can be for more than 5 weeks rent 
https://blog.openrent.co.uk/tenant-fees-ban-what-landlords-need-to-know/

can I suggest you read G-M's sticky post in full (ie including all the linked pages in it as well)
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5180214/tenancies-in-eng-wales-guides-for-landlords-and-tenants/p1

since this your first time renting and there is obviously a huge amount you simply don't realise that you don't know about your rights (and obligations) as a tenant and how a LL is required to operate to remain within the law 

princeofpounds

OK. So it's a terribly drafted contract, if that is word-for-word. It looks like the LL has tried to describe their scenario but they've done a terrible job of it, especially that 5th September nonsense (sounds like a cut-and-paste error from an old contract).

Whilst you should have read and queried this, I don't think a court would force you to pay keep paying rent two months in advance or agree a Section 8 termination of the tenancy (i.e. an eviction notice) on the basis of this. It's too ambiguous and any ambiguity will be resolved in favour of the party that did not write the contract (i.e. you).

However, that leaves you with the issue around the relationship that I mentioned previously. Is it worth upsetting the landlord or not, and can you cope with the payments if staying two months in advance? If you decide to pay as they request, just remember to keep good records of all payments you make, the date, and to stop paying 2 months prior to the end (remember the end may come after the expiry of the fixed term if you want to stay longer on a statutory periodic basis).

As for protection - just wait. IIRC they have 30 days to do it and give you the required information. If they don't, it actually puts you in a strong position - you can sue them for a penalty, for example. Come back here and ask more details on the issue then.

bella2555

princeofpounds said:

OK. So it's a terribly drafted contract, if that is word-for-word. It looks like the LL has tried to describe their scenario but they've done a terrible job of it, especially that 5th September nonsense (sounds like a cut-and-paste error from an old contract).

Whilst you should have read and queried this, I don't think a court would force you to pay keep paying rent two months in advance or agree a Section 8 termination of the tenancy (i.e. an eviction notice) on the basis of this. It's too ambiguous and any ambiguity will be resolved in favour of the party that did not write the contract (i.e. you).

However, that leaves you with the issue around the relationship that I mentioned previously. Is it worth upsetting the landlord or not, and can you cope with the payments if staying two months in advance? If you decide to pay as they request, just remember to keep good records of all payments you make, the date, and to stop paying 2 months prior to the end (remember the end may come after the expiry of the fixed term if you want to stay longer on a statutory periodic basis).

As for protection - just wait. IIRC they have 30 days to do it and give you the required information. If they don't, it actually puts you in a strong position - you can sue them for a penalty, for example. Come back here and ask more details on the issue then.

Thank you so much for your advice, this has really helped. I honestly love the property and really don't want to start upsetting the landlord to be honest (I hate being difficult).

I just was so confused with the whole rent in advance and I think the tenancy agreement is really basic and has not stated things very clearly. For now I will just assume that its covering October and the last month of Tenancy, I will be ok financially but just wanted some clarity and did not want drama at the end of tenancy.

 I am going to just continue paying and also keep an eye out for the deposit protection scheme contact.