2nd Gen Smart Meters in Ryedale, North Yorks.

whitling2k

I'm thinking of an electric or PHEV vehicle, as well as thermal/battery storage for my house.  But, I need access to a modern smart electricity tariff for it to work out financially.  I know some suppliers offer very cheap rates of electricity during the small hours of the morning, or the ability to use the car batteries to supplement the grid.  Potentially offering significant savings when running a car on electricity.

However, these are all dependent on having a second-generation smart meter.

And this is the problem.  Living in Ryedale, North Yorkshire (YO17) SMETS2 smart meters are simply not available to me because they operate at a radio frequency which will cause interference with an RAF airbase, RAF Fylingdales.  All the potential energy suppliers just say "No; you are ineligible for a SMETS2 smart meter" and leave it at that.

Does anyone else know of this situation?  Is anything that might fix it on the horizon?  Is there anywhere I can find out more?  There is no obvious consumer portal for this information.  We just rely on hear-say from people within the industry. 

thorganby

I think that somebody is pulling your chain, as a fully approved planning application shows otherwise:

https://planningregister.ryedale.gov.uk/caonline-applications/applicationDetails.do?keyVal=O3B6R2NOGU100&activeTab=summary

Carrot007

whitling2k said:

And this is the problem.  Living in Ryedale, North Yorkshire (YO17) SMETS2 smart meters are simply not available to me because they operate at a radio frequency which will cause interference with an RAF airbase, RAF Fylingdales.

Do you have a old smart meter? If so they mean. we have met out government target and are not interested in changinr your meter again (even if you pay).

Smart meters are just a mobile phone. Do you get a signal, that would be a reason (they likely only use 1 network for domestic meters though so do you get all networks, it's usually one of the big 2 anyway). And the gas communicates with the electric over 2.5ghz (not wifi, not bluetooth, just custom like many things in the space) which as per anything in the range is unrestricted.

thorganby

Carrot007 said:

whitling2k said:

And this is the problem.  Living in Ryedale, North Yorkshire (YO17) SMETS2 smart meters are simply not available to me because they operate at a radio frequency which will cause interference with an RAF airbase, RAF Fylingdales.

Do you have a old smart meter? If so they mean. we have met out government target and are not interested in changinr your meter again (even if you pay).

Smart meters are just a mobile phone. Do you get a signal, that would be a reason (they likely only use 1 network for domestic meters though so do you get all networks, it's usually one of the big 2 anyway). And the gas communicates with the electric over 2.5ghz (not wifi, not bluetooth, just custom like many things in the space) which as per anything in the range is unrestricted.

SMETS2 meters do not use any mobile network in the north e.g. Rydale, it is a purpose built data network due to the terrain. 

molerat

I very much doubt a smart meter would interfere with Fylingdales, the other way round possibly.

Zellah

whitling2k said:

And this is the problem.  Living in Ryedale, North Yorkshire (YO17) SMETS2 smart meters are simply not available to me because they operate at a radio frequency which will cause interference with an RAF airbase, RAF Fylingdales.  All the potential energy suppliers just say "No; you are ineligible for a SMETS2 smart meter" and leave it at that.

Who told you this? AFAIK the frequency used by smets2 meters to communicate with the DCC network is unknown d/t security reasons. Unless you work for GCHQ?

[Deleted User]

Zellah said:

whitling2k said:

And this is the problem.  Living in Ryedale, North Yorkshire (YO17) SMETS2 smart meters are simply not available to me because they operate at a radio frequency which will cause interference with an RAF airbase, RAF Fylingdales.  All the potential energy suppliers just say "No; you are ineligible for a SMETS2 smart meter" and leave it at that.

Who told you this? AFAIK the frequency used by smets2 meters to communicate with the DCC network is unknown d/t security reasons. Unless you work for GCHQ?

Ryedale is I believe in the DCC Northern Region. From a recent planning application to Barnsley Council 

Smart gas and electric meters within premises will connect to Arqiva's network by means of the Communications Hub, which will be installed separately from the Smart Meter unit. The system uses Long Range Radio in the UHF band at 412-414 MHz for the uplink and 422-424 MHz fur the downlink, using licensed spectrum. The network equipment is provided by a US company, Sensus and operates over a proprietary radio protocol, which has been customised for utilities messaging services. This solution is ideal for covering the varied terrain and building types of the UK, and is in wide deployment in the US.

3.3. The typical operation of the Smart Metering system consists of meters sending readings to their Communications Hub by a pre-set schedule e.g. every hour or every four hours, etc. (Communications between the meter and the Communication Hub are typically in the 2.4 GHz or 870 MHz bands). Also on a pre-arranged schedule, the base station sends a message to each Communications Hub (at 424MHz) to request readings. The Communications Hub then responds {at 414MHz) with its stored readings. Each message is typically of the order of several hundred bytes sent for durations of less than half a second.

3.4. Arqiva is under a legal obligation to comply with the conditions of its licence granted by Ofcom. These conditions ensure avoidance of interference with other radio systems, other electrical equipment, instrumentation or air traffic systems. The conditions of the licence are mandated by Ofcom who are responsible for the regulation of the civilian radio spectrum. Ofcom also has powers to investigate and remedy any reported significant interference.

whitling2k

Thanks all - to be honest, these are the thought processes and resources I have already been through.

I think it's a real thing - but information is scant to say the least.  And I have no idea if/when it's going to be fixed.  Which has implications for us as a region for when the govt start banning petrol/diesel vehicles.  We're not only hit by the increased cost of EVs, but also by not being able to access cheap electric tariffs.

These are the sorts of responses I'm getting, and here are a few PDFs I also found, published by DCC, the company behind the data networks behind the smart meters.

[edit - I can't post hyperlinks]

page 60, Point 131.  A radio quiet version for Ryedale

page 53, mentions the need for alternative models

[Deleted User]

Fylingdales is listed in all aeronautical documents as a HIRTA. So what is a HIRTA:

High Intensity Radio Transmission Area (HIRTA) - Airspace of defined dimensions within which there is radio energy of an intensity which may cause interference with and on rare occasions damage to communications and navigation equipment. 

3.2.1 Areas within which there is radio energy of an intensity which could cause interference with and on rare occasions, cause 
damage to, communications and navigation equipment such as Radio Altimeter, VOR, ILS and Doppler are listed at ENR 5.3. The intensity may be sufficient to detonate electrically initiated explosive devices carried or fitted in aircraft. 

 I would guess that the issue relates to possible interference from Fylingdales' transmissions to smart meters and associated communication masts within a given area.

hyte1

Found this thread after a internet search - I was trying to get a gen 2 meter from OctopusEnergy however on the day the meter install was supposed to happen, it’s gets cancelled “because we live too close to Fylingdales” - were 40 miles north of the RAF base! Did you get any luck I sorting this out OP?

[Deleted User]

I suspect that this is part of the answer to smart meter comms hub interference issues with areas such a Fylingdales. 

https://www.thescarboroughnews.co.uk/news/people/robin-hoods-bay-villagers-battle-mast-four-times-height-double-decker-bus-2503063