My dad has been scammed out of £19,000

colsten

callum9999 said:

robatwork said:

Mickey666 said:

Call me a cynic as well, but is it possible the OP is planning their own scam and is using the collective experience and expertise of this forum to conduct an 'experimental' fraud to see where the weaknesses might lie and to gauge the chances of getting away with it?

I guess we'll find out if he ever comes back with some clear explanation or just disappears into the long list of "never came back" posters...

Given they've been subjected to a bunch of strangers banging on about how they're a liar, gathering research for their own scam, their dads an idiot who doesn't deserve help getting the money back and they're a school kid on half term, I'm amazed they're replying at all... There's no way in hell I'd come back and give an explanation after being treated like that! (Though I've made no secret of the fact I absolutely despise the toxic atmosphere that's been created on this board over the last few years)

Eh? Check the post before yours, for example.

callum9999

colsten said:

callum9999 said:

robatwork said:

Mickey666 said:

Call me a cynic as well, but is it possible the OP is planning their own scam and is using the collective experience and expertise of this forum to conduct an 'experimental' fraud to see where the weaknesses might lie and to gauge the chances of getting away with it?

I guess we'll find out if he ever comes back with some clear explanation or just disappears into the long list of "never came back" posters...

Given they've been subjected to a bunch of strangers banging on about how they're a liar, gathering research for their own scam, their dads an idiot who doesn't deserve help getting the money back and they're a school kid on half term, I'm amazed they're replying at all... There's no way in hell I'd come back and give an explanation after being treated like that! (Though I've made no secret of the fact I absolutely despise the toxic atmosphere that's been created on this board over the last few years)

Eh? Check the post before yours, for example.

When I say "I", I generally refer to myself and not other people...

Ergates

Mickey666 said:

Dr_Crypto said:

That is a very clear post, Colsten, and may well be what happened. 
However, the issue about the card does seem to be difficult to reconcile. Even if the scammers had obtained a replacement card then wouldn't the father's original card have stopped working? Had he been using his card or had it stopped working? 

Call me a cynic but the OP's reluctance to discuss anything about the original payee is ringing alarm bells. 

Call me a cynic as well, but is it possible the OP is planning their own scam and is using the collective experience and expertise of this forum to conduct an 'experimental' fraud to see where the weaknesses might lie and to gauge the chances of getting away with it?

Careful you don't pull a muscle with that stretch!

colsten

AWOL84 said:

The original payee was someone my dad paid money to to transfer an old vinyl record onto disk.

I came on here for advice (which some thankfully provided). To the rest of you who are sitting there coming up with outlandish theories I can only roll my eyes.

Bank have promised to have let us know by tomorrow and I’ll provide the update then. 

Any news from the bank, @AWOL84?

AWOL84

Apologies for the late response, had a million and one things on.
Right so the bank got in touch with us on Wednesday via email. I'm absolutely staggered that given my elderly father has just lost £19,000 they didn't have the decency to call rather than send a nameless e-mail providing their update.
The email said that they'd investigated "thoroughly" and because my dad had updated details via the use of a card reader that they'd been unable to refund.
By this point my head was just about to explode with rage/anger so I called Natwest to tell them once again that a card reader HAD NOT BEEN USED. I told them surely they have the capabilities to check if a card reader had been used? He said they do have the capabilities. They said they'd raise an appeal for us and we'd hear in five days.
After this I decided to try and find payee that my dad had paid back in November whose details Natwest told us had been updated. Dad could only remember part of his companys name and after a solid two hour spell of checking Google I managed to find the company and speak to the man in question.
To my utter amazement the man said he'd received the £19,000 and was only made aware after his own bank called to say whether he was expecting the payment. The bank informed him they'd withold the funds and then speak to the senders bank.
So much for Natwests "thorough" investigation eh? I called them back to provide the update and after spending nearly two hours on hold finally spoke to someone who wasn't helpful at all. I asked why wasn't we notifed about this? I asked could they call the payees bank to confirm the funds are being held and he said they could not.
The following day I called Natwest back again and again spent close to two hours on hold before speaking to someone which led to me being directed to about four different departments until I actually spoke to someone competent. He informed me that on their system he can Natwest had raised this with the payees bank a few days previous which left me further enraged as to why no one had told us this before?
All in all it seems to be a happy ending as it would appear the funds will be coming back to my dad although Natwest still haven't confirmed. They're saying they've contacted the other bank and they have upto 30 days to respond (quite why it takes this long I do not know).
The service received from Natwest has been the worst I've ever experienced with any company in my entire life and as soon as this is resolved we will be moving my dads bank account.
I'm angry with myself for not trying to find the payees details sooner as it would have saved a lot of stress.
I did ask Natwest the question as to what the scammers hoped to achieve by sending it to a payee already setup and they informed me that it's quite common that funds are sent in this way and the scammers would find the payees details to then contact them to say money has been sent in error can you wire it back to this account etc.

eskbanker

AWOL84 said:

All in all it seems to be a happy ending as it would appear the funds will be coming back to my dad although Natwest still haven't confirmed. They're saying they've contacted the other bank and they have upto 30 days to respond (quite why it takes this long I do not know).

Sounds like they've now invoked the standard misdirected payment process, which, as explained at https://www.fasterpayments.org.uk/press-release/new-help-customers-recover-payments-sent-error, has a period of 20 working days (i.e. at least 28 calendar days) to allow for contact with the recipient via their bank.  Chances are that if the recipient is already aware and cooperative, it shouldn't take that long.....

colsten

Thanks for the update - it sounds as if the matter will be resolved eventually without your dad losing a penny.  Which is clearly good news. I trust Natwest have re-activated your dad's access to his account now?

However.

AWOL84 said:

The email said that they'd investigated "thoroughly" and because my dad had updated details via the use of a card reader that they'd been unable to refund........I called Natwest to tell them once again that a card reader HAD NOT BEEN USED.

If Natwest say a card reader has been used, their systems will have an audit trail confirming this, and I would believe them and not shout at them to say it had not been used. There are two possible explanations:

1. your dad, or someone in his house, did actually use the card reader. 
   
   
2. a scammer has your Dad's active card and PIN. I would work on eliminating this possibility by asking dad to make a transaction with the card in his possession - preferably one to change his PIN.

Blackbeard_of_Perranporth

AWOL84 said:

Apologies for the late response, had a million and one things on.
Right so the bank got in touch with us on Wednesday via email. I'm absolutely staggered that given my elderly father has just lost £19,000 they didn't have the decency to call rather than send a nameless e-mail providing their update.
The email said that they'd investigated "thoroughly" and because my dad had updated details via the use of a card reader that they'd been unable to refund.
By this point my head was just about to explode with rage/anger so I called Natwest to tell them once again that a card reader HAD NOT BEEN USED. I told them surely they have the capabilities to check if a card reader had been used? He said they do have the capabilities. They said they'd raise an appeal for us and we'd hear in five days.
After this I decided to try and find payee that my dad had paid back in November whose details Natwest told us had been updated. Dad could only remember part of his companys name and after a solid two hour spell of checking Google I managed to find the company and speak to the man in question.
To my utter amazement the man said he'd received the £19,000 and was only made aware after his own bank called to say whether he was expecting the payment. The bank informed him they'd withold the funds and then speak to the senders bank.
So much for Natwests "thorough" investigation eh? I called them back to provide the update and after spending nearly two hours on hold finally spoke to someone who wasn't helpful at all. I asked why wasn't we notifed about this? I asked could they call the payees bank to confirm the funds are being held and he said they could not.
The following day I called Natwest back again and again spent close to two hours on hold before speaking to someone which led to me being directed to about four different departments until I actually spoke to someone competent. He informed me that on their system he can Natwest had raised this with the payees bank a few days previous which left me further enraged as to why no one had told us this before?
All in all it seems to be a happy ending as it would appear the funds will be coming back to my dad although Natwest still haven't confirmed. They're saying they've contacted the other bank and they have upto 30 days to respond (quite why it takes this long I do not know).
The service received from Natwest has been the worst I've ever experienced with any company in my entire life and as soon as this is resolved we will be moving my dads bank account.
I'm angry with myself for not trying to find the payees details sooner as it would have saved a lot of stress.
I did ask Natwest the question as to what the scammers hoped to achieve by sending it to a payee already setup and they informed me that it's quite common that funds are sent in this way and the scammers would find the payees details to then contact them to say money has been sent in error can you wire it back to this account etc.

So from this, it appears that your father did indeed send funds to a known payee? Then it would not need a card reader to authorise. Only by luck on finding the previous payee, that your father had set up, are you able to locate the missing £19,000. Hopefully this will be returned to his account.

This begs the question, I have said previously that your father had paid a known payee!
This suggest to me now, that you father is not able to carryout his normal banking and would require some other person to do it for them? This should resolve the issues in the future.

I am afraid, your father was not scammed?

As for OP, I would get some power of attorney to run your father's money affairs.

Ed-1

Blackbeard_of_Perranporth said:

AWOL84 said:

Apologies for the late response, had a million and one things on.
Right so the bank got in touch with us on Wednesday via email. I'm absolutely staggered that given my elderly father has just lost £19,000 they didn't have the decency to call rather than send a nameless e-mail providing their update.
The email said that they'd investigated "thoroughly" and because my dad had updated details via the use of a card reader that they'd been unable to refund.
By this point my head was just about to explode with rage/anger so I called Natwest to tell them once again that a card reader HAD NOT BEEN USED. I told them surely they have the capabilities to check if a card reader had been used? He said they do have the capabilities. They said they'd raise an appeal for us and we'd hear in five days.
After this I decided to try and find payee that my dad had paid back in November whose details Natwest told us had been updated. Dad could only remember part of his companys name and after a solid two hour spell of checking Google I managed to find the company and speak to the man in question.
To my utter amazement the man said he'd received the £19,000 and was only made aware after his own bank called to say whether he was expecting the payment. The bank informed him they'd withold the funds and then speak to the senders bank.
So much for Natwests "thorough" investigation eh? I called them back to provide the update and after spending nearly two hours on hold finally spoke to someone who wasn't helpful at all. I asked why wasn't we notifed about this? I asked could they call the payees bank to confirm the funds are being held and he said they could not.
The following day I called Natwest back again and again spent close to two hours on hold before speaking to someone which led to me being directed to about four different departments until I actually spoke to someone competent. He informed me that on their system he can Natwest had raised this with the payees bank a few days previous which left me further enraged as to why no one had told us this before?
All in all it seems to be a happy ending as it would appear the funds will be coming back to my dad although Natwest still haven't confirmed. They're saying they've contacted the other bank and they have upto 30 days to respond (quite why it takes this long I do not know).
The service received from Natwest has been the worst I've ever experienced with any company in my entire life and as soon as this is resolved we will be moving my dads bank account.
I'm angry with myself for not trying to find the payees details sooner as it would have saved a lot of stress.
I did ask Natwest the question as to what the scammers hoped to achieve by sending it to a payee already setup and they informed me that it's quite common that funds are sent in this way and the scammers would find the payees details to then contact them to say money has been sent in error can you wire it back to this account etc.

I am afraid, your father was not scammed?

It wasn't the father that made the payment so in that sense he was scammed regardless of whether the money comes back.

AWOL84

colsten said:

Thanks for the update - it sounds as if the matter will be resolved eventually without your dad losing a penny.  Which is clearly good news. I trust Natwest have re-activated your dad's access to his account now?

However.

AWOL84 said:

The email said that they'd investigated "thoroughly" and because my dad had updated details via the use of a card reader that they'd been unable to refund........I called Natwest to tell them once again that a card reader HAD NOT BEEN USED.

If Natwest say a card reader has been used, their systems will have an audit trail confirming this, and I would believe them and not shout at them to say it had not been used. There are two possible explanations:

1. your dad, or someone in his house, did actually use the card reader. 
   
   
2. a scammer has your Dad's active card and PIN. I would work on eliminating this possibility by asking dad to make a transaction with the card in his possession - preferably one to change his PIN.

We haven't reactivated his online banking yet. Once resolved a wider discussion needs to be had in regards to how his finances are managed.
As for your second point, for about the 1.5m time on this thread A CARD READER WAS NOT USED. As we now know the funds were sent to the original payee which would explain why a card reader wasn't used. The message from Natwest to say that the payees details had been updated was the scammer probably trying methods to change the account? I don't know and at this stage don't care either.
This is why I'm doubly angry with Natwest as they're clearly done no investigations whatsoever.