What's my rights for returning a faulty car?

james2k2

Hi All,
So I recently purchased a new used car, and on the initial test drive it all seemed OK. On the day I was due to collect it I got a call explaining there was a fault with the electronic seat adjustment. A few days later they fixed the issue and I went and collected it. Since having it, I've now found at least 4 other issues:
- Around 50% of the ambient lighting doesn't function (you can't see it in daylight hence not noticing on the test drive)
- One of the touch panel physical buttons sometimes fails to actuate
- Auto start/stop doesn't function
- Appauling MPG, like really really bad (24mpg) despite long gentle journeys (on my previous car that's only 35bhp less power and not much lighter could fetch me up to 72mpg with my light foot)

Issue 1 is a definite annoyance, issue two is just a bit frustrating as that control is duplicated elsewhere, issue 3 you could put down to poor conditions except it's had great conditions and certainly on my previous vehicle this functioned flawlessly. The MPG element though there's just no excuse for a 2017 diesel vehicle.

OK, in short: I contacted the dealership who have informed me I must let them try and repair the problems first. I was under the impression I could simply reject the car on the grounds of faults. Oh and the dealership is 2 hours away! Is what they say true, or can I reject the car and get a refund?

Cheers,
James

mobileron

I believe they also have  the rights to test it,how do they know if you are telling the truth.

tacpot12

It depends on how recently you purchased the car and whether the faults are to be expected on a car of that age. You only have a right to reject the car if you are doing so within 30 days. 

I think the ambient lighting issue might fall into the category of "To be expected on a car of that age" if it were a 10 year old car, but not on a 2017 car. Whether the touch panel physical button issue is to be expected on a 2017 car is a point for discussion, as such buttons tend to be flimsy.  

The Auto Stop/Start may have been disabled rather than be broken. If that model can have the Stop/Start disabling, try re-enabling if this is an option for the owner to do. If it is something the owner should be able to do, and you can't enable it, then this is another fault that may allow you to reject the car. 

The MPG is the most significant problem and should be sufficient to reject the car, if you are within the 30 days that you have to reject it. You need to take the car back to the dealer and ask for a refund under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 as the car it is faulty.
At the dealers, they will check to see that the faults exist. To get evidence of the MPG, you could use the onboard trip computer if the car has one - reset this as you leave home and take a photo of the trip MPG as you arrive at the dealers. Try to get the manufacturers figures for MPG, and check whether the real-world figure is less than 15% different to the manufacturers worst figure.  The 15% is not an industry standard, but apparently the Energy Saving Trust say that you should expect a cars MPG to about 15% less than than manufacture says it will be. 

This link might help you: 
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/buying-or-repairing-a-car/problems-with-a-used-car/

born_again

Auto stop/start may not be working as voltage in battery is too low.
There are many other things that effect Stop/start & diesel vehicles are the worst due to high compression needing a lot more cranking power.

james2k2

Hi All, and thank you for such a fast response! It's a mercedes E350d with all the bells and whistles so elements like the ambient lighting is a big part of the experience side of the car (it's the one that's supposed to light up the two wide-screen displays, all the doors and footwells for all occupants and you can set one of 64 colours). Having learnt how expensive that can be to fix I really don't want any future issues. I bought the car Wednesday and reported initial issues on Friday so all these niggles are well within the time frame 😊. The dealership told me to think on it over the weekend, so I had a fairly long drive to do (just under 200 miles) and decided to give it another go and that's when it returned me the worst yet MPG and the start stop didn't work once (and hasn't done since I got it). It's odd because it almost waits a couple of seconds then throws up the unavailable icon. But in response to the query, it's in Eco mode with start/stop enabled.

Basically in short, I just need to know I'm not going to end up with a lemon in the long run. So the dealership just said they have to have an opportunity to fix the problems before I can legally return it, and from my reading it suggested that I can just return it outright if I'm not happy with the issues. One of those things with me, I have a gut feeling it's going to give me long term problems!

Thanks again for your replies. 

tacpot12

The dealer can, in theory, claim that your test driver was sufficient to find all these faults. I would get ready to refute that each of the faults could be found on the test drive. 
1) You say that the ambient lighting can't be seen in daylight, but is this really true? Does the lighting have a light sensor that means it doesn't even turn on unless it is dark? If the lights come on in the daytime and could have been checked if you looked carefully, you might have a problem with this. 
2) I think it is reasonable on complex car like the E350d that a purchaser cannot be expected to test that every button functions, but neither can the trader. I suspect a court would take the view the one non-functioning button might reasonably be expected on a three year old car, and thus avoid having to rule that it is the dealer's job to test every feature of the car!
3) I think likely that the Stop/Start fault would not have show itself on all test drives, as you have to be stopped for a certain length of time for the car to stop the engine. 
4)  I think it unlikely that a test drive would show the MPG issue unless it was an extended one involving more than a hour of driving, I also think that a court would make an allowance for purchasers who are buying a car whose performance they are not necessarily familiar with. The powerful car may seem to perform as expected, but could be quite underpowered if there is an engine fault.

You need to make it clear that you understand the law, that you think the faults are too significant for the age of the car, so you are rejecting it, and that you are willing and able to take them to court to get your money back. You need to get them to sign something to say that they agree the contract is ended and they will refund your money, and that the car has been returned in good condition to them , and that they now own the car. With this, you can cancel your insurance on the car as you are no longer its owner or responsible for it. If they won't agree to take the car back, you remain responsible, and if you continue to use the car may have a deduction made from any eventual refund to reflect your use of the car. 

JamoLew

tacpot12 said:

The MPG is the most significant problem and should be sufficient to reject the car, if you are within the 30 days that you have to reject it. You need to take the car back to the dealer and ask for a refund under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 as the car it is faulty.
At the dealers, they will check to see that the faults exist. To get evidence of the MPG, you could use the onboard trip computer if the car has one - reset this as you leave home and take a photo of the trip MPG as you arrive at the dealers. Try to get the manufacturers figures for MPG, and check whether the real-world figure is less than 15% different to the manufacturers worst figure.  The 15% is not an industry standard, but apparently the Energy Saving Trust say that you should expect a cars MPG to about 15% less than than manufacture says it will be. 

I disagree - based on further info about the make/model
Honest John website states Real MPG for that make/model at 23.9 to 32.1 -- so not a fault, just a big heavy vehicle with a thirsty motor (should have researched before you bought)
Some auto stop/start systems don't activate if the climate control is on or if there is another load on the battery
The other 2 issues - dunno

james2k2

I did check Real MPG and its actually 28 to 44 for real, and 48 to 54 official. My gripe is that the MPG is seemingly all over the place even with a light foot on all journeys, and the start stop feature simply being unavailable no matter what the conditions or what journey is frustrating for sure. To put in perspective my other car (Volvo S60 D5 R-Design) that this was meant to replace I have managed 72mpg on my daily commute and averaging 60mpg over lifetime. If you go check Honest John's Real MPG on that it's saying much much lower. I either have a one off amazing Volvo, or my commute is very economical (I do 75 miles each way of mostly motorway, usually doing around 60 with the lorries). I have driven the new car no different. The ambient lighting simply isn't visible in the daylight and unless you have a funky neck to look in all the hiding places for light strips you won't see them until night. Anyway, I'll see what the dealership says today. Thanks again all! 

daveyjp

How many miles has the car done?
Batteries (this car, like most Mercs will probably have two) can be tested quickly
Also don't assume because it is an expensive Mercedes it will be trouble free.  Problems with ambient lighting, buttons failing etc are all signs for me to reject.

neilmcl

james2k2 said:

I did check Real MPG and its actually 28 to 44 for real, and 48 to 54 official. My gripe is that the MPG is seemingly all over the place even with a light foot on all journeys, and the start stop feature simply being unavailable no matter what the conditions or what journey is frustrating for sure. To put in perspective my other car (Volvo S60 D5 R-Design) that this was meant to replace I have managed 72mpg on my daily commute and averaging 60mpg over lifetime. If you go check Honest John's Real MPG on that it's saying much much lower. I either have a one off amazing Volvo, or my commute is very economical (I do 75 miles each way of mostly motorway, usually doing around 60 with the lorries). I have driven the new car no different. The ambient lighting simply isn't visible in the daylight and unless you have a funky neck to look in all the hiding places for light strips you won't see them until night. Anyway, I'll see what the dealership says today. Thanks again all! 

Don't use the real time MPG from from the OBC as a guide, if you have to use the display then use the average MPG, reset it once and leave it and see what it says after a number of journeys. If you want a more accurate reading then manually work it out yourself. Auto start/stop may not come on for a while if the car's been parked up at the dealer for ages and you've not been out in it all that much. The start/stop on my BMW hasn't activated for weeks now as I've not been out in it much and the battery is no doubt quite low, also if I go on longer journeys where I don't use the brakes that much that also affect the way it works as I'm not doing any brake regeneration.

james2k2

@daveyjp That's exactly my thoughts. I've done some research into things like the ambient lighting and it can be an expensive repair! I read about an aux battery / storage capacitor that is used for start/stop. The car has done a fair few miles (64000), so in some ways I don't expect it to be completely perfect so the MPG element is dissapointing but when it got less than 25mpg on a long run then I'm asking questions. My Volvo has done 111000 now, and still returns 57mpg on a heavy foot, and 65 on a light foot with the occasional higher/lower. Might add the Volvo isn't much lighter and still has a 2.4L 5-cylinder engine at only 35bhp less than the Merc. Now I do wonder if on that particular run the merc was doing a regen cycle (like when my Volvo does one my MPG for that journey reduces to around 50). Does anybody know if Merc's do regen's?

@neilmcl Agreed, I generally try and work out the maths myself so only after some more journey's will I see for real what I'm getting I guess. On my Volvo, irrespective of what the car says I've had between 900 and 1000 miles from a 64L tank on a lot of occasions.

I think I just have more concerns over electrical type things. The fuse blowing on something as simple as a motor for the seat movement, and then ambient lighting not working and start/stop potentially caused by a failing battery/aux supply. For example, if I was to buy a used car and discovered lamps keep blowing way ahead of expected life I would definitely be asking questions over the electrical system. The problem with this kind of stuff is there sometimes isn't necessarily a fault the OBD would pick up on. As it happens I have a professional diagnostic tool, and it is currently reporting an internal fault with the left front crash sensor. Annoyingly my machine hasn't had an update yet to support W213 fully so this message could be incorrect if the code has been used elsewhere on previous models. Anyway, If I end up having to keep it I'll ensure the dealership gets everything repaired and it will be getting sold again as soon as possible or returned after 2 years under voluntary termination from the HP company.