TV licensing spying on home internet usage

brewerdave

matelodave said:

Mickey666 said:

Browntoa said:

They need to prove it was you personally.
They cannot prove it was you , somebody may have been able to log onto your WiFi as you inadvertently turned off all security by mistake .

First time I’ve heard that - I’ve always thought it was the home owner/occupier who was responsible.
If correct, I don’t see how TVL could prosecute anyone unless they had physically caught them in the act of watching without a licence, whereas in practice they just seem to go for unlicensed homes.  In this case, it was a friend in others it could be the baby-sitter etc.  What about children?  Are they legally responsible if they tune into iPlayer?  How could TVL ever pin it down to a specific person watching?

When you use the internet, your IP address is visible to those who want to check it and I have no doubt that the BBC and others have the technology to know which IP addresses are viewing I-Player and it's not going to be difficult to correlate an IP address to a physical one. and then check if there's a valid licence at that address.
I'm sure there'll be a legal way for the BBC to demand the address from the ISP - in much the same way as the DVLA will flog-off the name & address of your car number plate to anyone who asks

There is a legal route BUT unless things have changed it requires a court order. There were a number of cases a few years ago, where a producer of !!!!!! films was using such court orders to harass people who it was claimed ,had downloaded content without payment. A lot of the cases got thrown out and a firm of solicitors were struck off for speculative invoicing!!!
I'm sure that it wouldn't make sense for the Beeb (or Crapita ) to pursue everyone but they might chase down a small number in the hope that they will find a few unlicenced users of I Player who they can use as examples!
EDIT It is a Norwich Pharmacal order.

Mickey666

matelodave said:

Mickey666 said:

Browntoa said:

They need to prove it was you personally.
They cannot prove it was you , somebody may have been able to log onto your WiFi as you inadvertently turned off all security by mistake .

First time I’ve heard that - I’ve always thought it was the home owner/occupier who was responsible.
If correct, I don’t see how TVL could prosecute anyone unless they had physically caught them in the act of watching without a licence, whereas in practice they just seem to go for unlicensed homes.  In this case, it was a friend in others it could be the baby-sitter etc.  What about children?  Are they legally responsible if they tune into iPlayer?  How could TVL ever pin it down to a specific person watching?

When you use the internet, your IP address is visible to those who want to check it and I have no doubt that the BBC and others have the technology to know which IP addresses are viewing I-Player and it's not going to be difficult to correlate an IP address to a physical one. and then check if there's a valid licence at that address.

If it's being watched in your house on your internet, through your router then it's your responsibility to ensure that your internet is secure. I guess that most routers have NAT so that it's not easily possible to identify a particular computer, tablet or phone on the WAN side but the external connection to the premises will be. Just type in "what is my IP address" into your search bar. It's then an easy step to find out who the ISP is.
I'm sure there'll be a legal way for the BBC to demand the address from the ISP - in much the same way as the DVLA will flog-off the name & address of your car number plate to anyone who asks

So a householder computer layperson quite legitimately without a TV licence could be liable for an offence if an expert computer hacker used their wifi to access BBC iPlayer?  Also liable for any of their friends use of their wifi while visiting?  Also, every pub, cafe, airport, railway station and other business that offers wifi access to their customers would be liable for not having a TV licence if their customers use illegally access BBC iPlayer?

A ridiculous state of affairs and yet another reason why the BBC funding and TV licencing is way overdue for review.

mr_mf

Just to add this this, you usually can't watch  iPlayer via a VPN.  The BBC know it's a VPN and block it (mostly to avoid people from overseas watching programmes for which the rights have only been negotiated for the UK market).

Cornucopia

AFAIK there is no possibility of BBC/TVL using IP addresses as an enforcement route.    They will see the IP address being used by an incoming request to iPlayer, but they have no means to identify who it is (in terms of a street address or email address).  

What they do, though, is match email addresses between "No licence needed" submissions and BBC iPlayer IDs.   It's also possible they do the same kind of matching on email addresses previously submitted with Licence purchase info where the Licence has now lapsed.

That means that it's a fairly weak piece of info to use for enforcement purposes, and can only really support the fishing letter mentioned.

Mickey666

This discussion raises the question about WHO is actually responsible for paying for a TV licence.

Is it the householder (and who would that be in a family situation?) or is it the individual watching a licencable tv programme?

Example - householder decides they don't want a TV licence because they never watch TV.  A friend stays for the weekend and uses the householder's wifi to view BBC programmes.  Householder or friend's liability?  Or, householder's children, despite being told not to use wifi for iPlayer, use it to view BBC programmes.  Householder or child's liability?  TVL might be able to track IP addresses to show that iPlayer content was deivered to a particular address without a TV licence, but that's no proof of who was watching licencable content.

It's a similar situation to a speed cameras - they can prove a car was speeding and the registered keeper can be traced through the reg no, but it's no proof of who was driving.  Perhaps it's an offence for a householder NOT to identify who was accessing their wifi at a given time, I don't know, though unless they are famililar with the inner workings of their router logs then how would they know?

It's all a complicated mess and the current laws around TV licencing are really not fit for purpose.

Were_Doomed

Mickey666 said:

It's a similar situation to a speed cameras - they can prove a car was speeding and the registered keeper can be traced through the reg no, but it's no proof of who was driving. 

I get what you're driving at (pun intended)  but that's a slightly different scenario which has legal backing ... in such a situation a S172 notice is sent to the RK for them to identify the driver at the date/time of the event. The RK is legally obliged to respond (truthfully) to the S172 notice else the RK becomes liable for an enhanced fine and points.

Cornucopia

It's academic - they don't trace IP addresses.

basill

Every now and then Iplayer informs me of the need for a license and asks me to sign in

brewerdave

Cornucopia said:

It's academic - they don't trace IP addresses.

I think the point raised earlier ,was that they could - but at quite a large expense. So, as I said, it's possible that they could run a small scale trawling exercise to (possibly) identify an unlicensed home using I Player - and use them as an example !

Carrot007

mr_mf said:

Just to add this this, you usually can't watch  iPlayer via a VPN.  The BBC know it's a VPN and block it (mostly to avoid people from overseas watching programmes for which the rights have only been negotiated for the UK market).

TBF I've not found BBC do this. Netflix and other do but as long as you VPN exit point it in the uk (which should be obvious) then BBC tends to work for me. But of course I can only vouch for the VPN I use.