Trailer weight plate and car towing capacity

scrappy_returns

Mickey666 said:

scrappy_returns said:

Mickey666 said:

So, can anyone post a link that clearly states the above statements are not correct, rather than just post their uninformed opinion?

Uniformed?
Ignorant and arrogant all at once.
It's interesting how you think there is a debate to be had yet cite anecdotal evidence your self.

Not uniformed, uninformed
Uninformed because you’ve posted nothing to support your incorrect statements.  So the answer to the question posed would appear to be ‘no’.  My apologies if that comes across as arrogant, even though it seems to be correct.

Oh, I see your mistake, you've made an assumption. My statements are based on experience. I expect you'll be demand links etc but I'll leave it as that. Good luck.

facade

Car_54 said:

Car_54 said:

Mickey666 said:

Car_54 said:

Mickey666 said:

I know the police cannot judge the weight of a trailer, any more than they can judge the speed of a car - that’s why definitive evidence of a speeding offence is required and they can’t rely on the top speed marked on the speedometer to infer an offence.  So how can it be right that they can infer an overloading offence based simply on a number stamped on a trailer?

What I’m looking for is a reliable reference to the actual law.  Where is it defined that towing a trailer plated at 3500kg CAPABILITY but only loaded to, say, 1000kg with a vehicle rated to tow, say, 2200kg is an offence?  

You're right: checking the mass of a trailer at the roadside is difficult and time-consuming. But that may be tha answer to your question: the law is based on maximum mass simply because that can be easily checked and is unarguable.

The law is explained here https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car

I've seen that link in my searches, but it doesn't actually state that towing a trailer RATED at more than the towing vehicle capacity is an offence when it is only loaded UNDER the towing vehicle capacity.

What about:

"If you passed your car driving test on or after 1 January 1997 you can:

• drive a car or van up to 3,500kg maximum authorised mass (MAM) towing a trailer of up to 750kg MAM
• tow a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as the combined MAM of the trailer and towing vehicle is no more than 3,500kg"?

It's worth adding that not everything on gov.uk is accurate. A bit like the rest of the internet I suppose.

The confusion comes from reading the DVLA leaflet INF30 https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/804372/inf30-requirements-for-towing-trailers-in-great-britain.pdf

In INF30 that sentence is (for a pre-2013 licence)

As category B but with a trailer weighing more than 750kg. The total weight of the vehicle and trailer together can’t weigh more than 3,500kg.

This has been interpreted by other forums to mean that pre-2013 licences it is the actual weight that matters, not the MAM

However INF30 does say at the top of the page

All weights quoted for the relevant vehicles relate to the ‘Maximum Authorised Mass’ (MAM). This is the total weight of the vehicle when ‘laden’ (loaded).

Which adds to the confusion.

What they mean of course is what it says on dot gov https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-weights-explained

Maximum authorised mass (MAM) means the weight of a vehicle or trailer including the maximum load that can be carried safely when it’s being used on the road.

This is also known as gross vehicle weight (GVW) or permissible maximum weight.

It will be listed in the owner’s manual and is normally shown on a plate or sticker fitted to the vehicle.

My interpretation, which I think is the Police/DVLA/VOSA one (I know VOSA doesn't exist) is that

Physically exceeding the MAM as determined by a weighbridge is an overloading offence, but arithmetically exceeding the plated train MAM is a type approval/roadworthiness offence.

A train that is arithmetically exceeding 3500kg MAM (or 3500kg MAM of solo vehicle plus 750kg MAM of trailer) on a standard  post-96 licence is driving otherwise than in accordance with a licence.

As a layman, with no legal training, it seems to me that if they spent a bit more on ink, and put plated MAM rather than give unnecessary definitions there would be no confusion. (Or is plated MAM tautology- and forbidden?)

scrappy_returns

Mickey666 said:

scrappy_returns said:

Mickey666 said:

scrappy_returns said:

Mickey666 said:

So, can anyone post a link that clearly states the above statements are not correct, rather than just post their uninformed opinion?

Uniformed?
Ignorant and arrogant all at once.
It's interesting how you think there is a debate to be had yet cite anecdotal evidence your self.

Not uniformed, uninformed
Uninformed because you’ve posted nothing to support your incorrect statements.  So the answer to the question posed would appear to be ‘no’.  My apologies if that comes across as arrogant, even though it seems to be correct.

Oh, I see your mistake, you've made an assumption. My statements are based on experience. I expect you'll be demand links etc but I'll leave it as that. Good luck.

Yes, I've made an assumption but I'm not certain about it, which is why I started this thread in the hope of some more definite evidence either way.  I'm arguing my case while being open to any proof against and I've posted some independent 'evidence' to support my case.  You've not posted anything to support your 'experience' so how can anyone judge if your experience is valid?

Indeed, what's your view of the two trailer company links I posted - are you dismissing them?  If so, on what basis?

From your vocabulary you have arrived at a foregone conclusion without any input from anyone else which I identified in my 2nd post on this thread. It is apparent nothing has changed so I wish you luck with that.

facade

I think it must be to do with a European directive from 2013, but I can't track it down.

2013 is the point at which the B licence permission changed from mentioning trailer "weight" to only mentioning MAM.

You are right though, most people say it is the actual weight at the time of the stop that matters on the road, and no-one can come up with anything in print about it being just a MAM calculation. (apart from the driving licence thing which is definitely based on MAM now)

There is yet another complication in that people talk of "downplating" trailers to comply with "the regs"- you have to wonder what "regs" it is for- reducing the MAM of a car trailer to 750kg just so a B licence holder can tow it would make it useless.

facade

Incidentally, all this talk of plating and regs has prompted me to find where the rating plate is hidden on my tow bar.

Naturally, it is underneath, right where road dirt will quickly erase it, it isn't even stamped into the frame.

Turns out there are 2 numbers, a D and an S value.

The S value is the maximum nose weight in kg

The D value (in kN) needs a calculator and is the result of

D = 9.81 × (T × C) ÷ (T + C)
T = Towing Vehicle MAM
C = Trailer MAM
9.81 = Gravity

there are calculators at https://www.trailparts.co.uk/S_and_D_Values if you want to check yours, mine is right to 2SF, 1435kg car MAM, 1300kg trailer MAM works out to 6.7 kN, as on the plate

Why they can't just stamp it with the permitted MAM of the trailer I don't know.

Mickey666

Interesting link - I may go and crawl in the dirt later to check my tow bar rating!

As for the use of Newton’s rather than Kg, yes I know it is more scientifically correct but how many vehicles are not going to be operating on Earth!  It all just adds to the confusion.  I’m not a great one for conspiracy theories, but this whole issue make me wonder if there is deliberate obfuscation going on - and quite successfully it would seem, intentional or not!

Apodemus

This has been an interesting discussion and I am surprised that there is no clear pointer to legislation that would definitively answer the underlying issue.  I always understood that in all things related to vehicle weight restrictions (for trailers, licences and road or bridge weight restrictions), it was the MAM/GVW that applied, regardless of the load carried at the time.  To be honest, I'm quite surprised to see that this is open to debate and may in fact not be the case.

onomatopoeia99

Mickey666 said:

Apodemus said:

This has been an interesting discussion and I am surprised that there is no clear pointer to legislation that would definitively answer the underlying issue.  I always understood that in all things related to vehicle weight restrictions (for trailers, licences and road or bridge weight restrictions), it was the MAM/GVW that applied, regardless of the load carried at the time.  To be honest, I'm quite surprised to see that this is open to debate and may in fact not be the case.

Yes, interesting and surprising that a fairly commonplace issue should be so difficult to definitively pin down.
Interesting point about road/bridge restrictions, which would seem to be consistent with licences.

My conclusion, so far, is that as long as the driver is correctly licensed to drive a vehicle/trailer combination, which CAN be verified by the vehicle and trailer plates alone, the trailer RATING can be greater than the vehicle RATING and will not be an offence unless the ACTUAL trailer weight exceeds the vehicle rating (or the trailer rating of course).
In short, the MAM is used to determine entitlement but not actual weight.  So, my pre-1997 driving licence entitles me to tow up to 3500kg and my Defender is rated to do so.  My other car is rated to tow 1800kg so as long as I only load the same trailer to below that weight then I can legally tow it.
I think!  

That has always been my understanding, that for construction and use it is the actual weight of the trailer that is relevant, but for driver licensing the MAM of the trailer used.

So, as someone that passed their test in 1987, my Transit (which can tow 2000kg) is perfectly OK to tow my trailer (unladen weight 900kg, MAM 2500kg) as long as I don't put any more than 1100kg inside it.

I remember when the towing entitlement was changed for new drivers in 1997, the then Secretary of state for transport saying (in a letter to Horse and Hound magazine, which has a considerable part of it readership that own trailers) that the intention was not to make the towing weights in vehicle handbooks legally enforceable, but the police seem to have done this in the meantime and the courts have supported them.

alan_d

Mickey666 said:

My conclusion, so far, is that as long as the driver is correctly licensed to drive a vehicle/trailer combination, which CAN be verified by the vehicle and trailer plates alone, the trailer RATING can be greater than the vehicle RATING and will not be an offence unless the ACTUAL trailer weight exceeds the vehicle rating (or the trailer rating of course).
In short, the MAM is used to determine entitlement but not actual weight.  So, my pre-1997 driving licence entitles me to tow up to 3500kg and my Defender is rated to do so.  My other car is rated to tow 1800kg so as long as I only load the same trailer to below that weight then I can legally tow it.
I think!  

That's my understanding also. 
I've hired many trailers over the years, from the biggest trailer reseller in the area. The MAM of the hired trailer has always been over the car's towing rating. Never once have they suggested down-plating the trailer to meet the car's towing rating.
Further, I once used a hired box trailer (again MAM more than the car's towing rating) for a B+E towing test, no issues.