Trailer weight plate and car towing capacity

Ectophile

Mickey666 said:

Car_54 said:

Mickey666 said:

I know the police cannot judge the weight of a trailer, any more than they can judge the speed of a car - that’s why definitive evidence of a speeding offence is required and they can’t rely on the top speed marked on the speedometer to infer an offence.  So how can it be right that they can infer an overloading offence based simply on a number stamped on a trailer?

What I’m looking for is a reliable reference to the actual law.  Where is it defined that towing a trailer plated at 3500kg CAPABILITY but only loaded to, say, 1000kg with a vehicle rated to tow, say, 2200kg is an offence?  

You're right: checking the mass of a trailer at the roadside is difficult and time-consuming. But that may be tha answer to your question: the law is based on maximum mass simply because that can be easily checked and is unarguable.

The law is explained here https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car

I've seen that link in my searches, but it doesn't actually state that towing a trailer RATED at more than the towing vehicle capacity is an offence when it is only loaded UNDER the towing vehicle capacity.

Ultimately, that would be section 87 of the Road Traffic Act which requires you to have a licence for the sort of vehicle you're driving.  If your licence says you are only allowed to drive a vehicle up to a specified Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM), then driving a vehicle above that would be an offence.

So if your licence limits you to 3500Kg MAM, and you drive a 3200Kg gross vehicle weight 4x4 car with a 3500Kg gross weight trailer on the back, then the MAM is 6700Kg, regardless of what's on the trailer.

nottsphil

Mickey666 said:

Car_54 said:

Mickey666 said:

I know the police cannot judge the weight of a trailer, any more than they can judge the speed of a car - that’s why definitive evidence of a speeding offence is required and they can’t rely on the top speed marked on the speedometer to infer an offence.  So how can it be right that they can infer an overloading offence based simply on a number stamped on a trailer?

What I’m looking for is a reliable reference to the actual law.  Where is it defined that towing a trailer plated at 3500kg CAPABILITY but only loaded to, say, 1000kg with a vehicle rated to tow, say, 2200kg is an offence?  

You're right: checking the mass of a trailer at the roadside is difficult and time-consuming. But that may be tha answer to your question: the law is based on maximum mass simply because that can be easily checked and is unarguable.

The law is explained here https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car

I've seen that link in my searches, but it doesn't actually state that towing a trailer RATED at more than the towing vehicle capacity is an offence when it is only loaded UNDER the towing vehicle capacity.

Indeed, it would seem to confirm your view.... 

Where the sum of the maximum plated weights of the towing vehicle and of the trailer added together exceed the plated GCW of the towing vehicle, this is not a problem as long as the ‘actual’ weights of the vehicle and trailer (which may not be fully laden at the time) do not exceed the plated GCW.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/towing-a-trailer-with-a-car-or-van/towing-a-trailer-with-a-car-or-van-the-basics

ElephantBoy57

Mickey666 said:

The MAM is just that - a MAXIMUM.  So what if a trailer has a max weight rating of 3500kg if it is only loaded up to, say, 1000kg and the towing vehicle is rated to tow 2000kg?  What is the offence under such circumstances?  I'm saying there is none.

Look at it another way.  3500kg rated trailer and 2000kg rated vehicle.  You're suggesting that's an offence because the trailer COULD be loaded to exceed the vehicle rating.  Well of course it COULD.

There is a maximum size for a trailer, depending on the weight. If the OP wants to risk a wasted journey to the vehicle weighing station or to get a fixed penalty and then appeal.

Maybe he really needs to push his trailer to the limit, I don't know.

scrappy_returns

Mickey666 said:

So, can anyone post a link that clearly states the above statements are not correct, rather than just post their uninformed opinion?

Uniformed?
Ignorant and arrogant all at once.
It's interesting how you think there is a debate to be had yet cite anecdotal evidence your self.

Mickey666

Ectophile said:

Mickey666 said:

Car_54 said:

Mickey666 said:

I know the police cannot judge the weight of a trailer, any more than they can judge the speed of a car - that’s why definitive evidence of a speeding offence is required and they can’t rely on the top speed marked on the speedometer to infer an offence.  So how can it be right that they can infer an overloading offence based simply on a number stamped on a trailer?

What I’m looking for is a reliable reference to the actual law.  Where is it defined that towing a trailer plated at 3500kg CAPABILITY but only loaded to, say, 1000kg with a vehicle rated to tow, say, 2200kg is an offence?  

You're right: checking the mass of a trailer at the roadside is difficult and time-consuming. But that may be tha answer to your question: the law is based on maximum mass simply because that can be easily checked and is unarguable.

The law is explained here https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car

I've seen that link in my searches, but it doesn't actually state that towing a trailer RATED at more than the towing vehicle capacity is an offence when it is only loaded UNDER the towing vehicle capacity.

Ultimately, that would be section 87 of the Road Traffic Act which requires you to have a licence for the sort of vehicle you're driving.  If your licence says you are only allowed to drive a vehicle up to a specified Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM), then driving a vehicle above that would be an offence.

So if your licence limits you to 3500Kg MAM, and you drive a 3200Kg gross vehicle weight 4x4 car with a 3500Kg gross weight trailer on the back, then the MAM is 6700Kg, regardless of what's on the trailer.

True, but not relevant to the subject of this thread.

Mickey666

scrappy_returns said:

Mickey666 said:

So, can anyone post a link that clearly states the above statements are not correct, rather than just post their uninformed opinion?

Uniformed?
Ignorant and arrogant all at once.
It's interesting how you think there is a debate to be had yet cite anecdotal evidence your self.

Not uniformed, uninformed
Uninformed because you’ve posted nothing to support your incorrect statements.  So the answer to the question posed would appear to be ‘no’.  My apologies if that comes across as arrogant, even though it seems to be correct.

williamgriffin

ElephantBoy57 said:

Mickey666 said:

The MAM is just that - a MAXIMUM.  So what if a trailer has a max weight rating of 3500kg if it is only loaded up to, say, 1000kg and the towing vehicle is rated to tow 2000kg?  What is the offence under such circumstances?  I'm saying there is none.

Look at it another way.  3500kg rated trailer and 2000kg rated vehicle.  You're suggesting that's an offence because the trailer COULD be loaded to exceed the vehicle rating.  Well of course it COULD.

There is a maximum size for a trailer, depending on the weight. If the OP wants to risk a wasted journey to the vehicle weighing station or to get a fixed penalty and then appeal.

Maybe he really needs to push his trailer to the limit, I don't know.

If you don't know then why post?

Car_54

Mickey666 said:

Car_54 said:

Mickey666 said:

I know the police cannot judge the weight of a trailer, any more than they can judge the speed of a car - that’s why definitive evidence of a speeding offence is required and they can’t rely on the top speed marked on the speedometer to infer an offence.  So how can it be right that they can infer an overloading offence based simply on a number stamped on a trailer?

What I’m looking for is a reliable reference to the actual law.  Where is it defined that towing a trailer plated at 3500kg CAPABILITY but only loaded to, say, 1000kg with a vehicle rated to tow, say, 2200kg is an offence?  

You're right: checking the mass of a trailer at the roadside is difficult and time-consuming. But that may be tha answer to your question: the law is based on maximum mass simply because that can be easily checked and is unarguable.

The law is explained here https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car

I've seen that link in my searches, but it doesn't actually state that towing a trailer RATED at more than the towing vehicle capacity is an offence when it is only loaded UNDER the towing vehicle capacity.

What about:

"If you passed your car driving test on or after 1 January 1997 you can:

• drive a car or van up to 3,500kg maximum authorised mass (MAM) towing a trailer of up to 750kg MAM
• tow a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as the combined MAM of the trailer and towing vehicle is no more than 3,500kg"?

facade

Mickey666 said:

facade said:

It isn't an overloading offence, it is a technical offence based on type approval, probably somewhere in the Euro regulations, the January 2013 one is usually quoted

but feel free to read through https://ec.europa.eu/growth/sectors/automotive/legislation/motor-vehicles-trailers_en

Certainly the The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 sets out offences of exceeding limits but not the offence of having too high a MAM.

It is one of those things that people who tow for a living seem to just know about, but always catches out the amateur, have a look at Pepipoo, there have been several people prosecuted for towing empty trailers behind a van.

. . . perhaps because there is no offence of having too high a MAM?  Wouldn't that be a bit like have a vehicle with too high a top speed - er, just like every car on the road!

The MAM is just that - a MAXIMUM.  So what if a trailer has a max weight rating of 3500kg if it is only loaded up to, say, 1000kg and the towing vehicle is rated to tow 2000kg?  What is the offence under such circumstances?  I'm saying there is none.

Look at it another way.  3500kg rated trailer and 2000kg rated vehicle.  You're suggesting that's an offence because the trailer COULD be loaded to exceed the vehicle rating.  Well of course it COULD.  OK, how about a 3500kg rated trailer and a 3500kg rated vehicle?  By your argument that would be ok . . . except that it COULD ALSO be loaded to exceed both the trailer AND vehicle ratings.  The whole 'COULD' argument is ludicrous.

As for people being prosecuted for such ludicrous 'offences', I've no doubt that's true - in fact I started this whole thread with an example of such a 'prosecution'.  But have those 'prosecutions' ever come to court, or were they just tickets that were wrongly issued and the driver just paid up believing the policeman was right.  Do the police never make mistakes?

No, I'm suggesting the offence is one of operating a vehicle outside of its type approval- which renders it roadworthy.

Doesn't the ticket have the offence on it?

It should be easy to fight an overloading offence with a trailer acknowledged to be empty, I doubt if that is the offence on the ticket.

Car_54

Car_54 said:

Mickey666 said:

Car_54 said:

Mickey666 said:

I know the police cannot judge the weight of a trailer, any more than they can judge the speed of a car - that’s why definitive evidence of a speeding offence is required and they can’t rely on the top speed marked on the speedometer to infer an offence.  So how can it be right that they can infer an overloading offence based simply on a number stamped on a trailer?

What I’m looking for is a reliable reference to the actual law.  Where is it defined that towing a trailer plated at 3500kg CAPABILITY but only loaded to, say, 1000kg with a vehicle rated to tow, say, 2200kg is an offence?  

You're right: checking the mass of a trailer at the roadside is difficult and time-consuming. But that may be tha answer to your question: the law is based on maximum mass simply because that can be easily checked and is unarguable.

The law is explained here https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car

I've seen that link in my searches, but it doesn't actually state that towing a trailer RATED at more than the towing vehicle capacity is an offence when it is only loaded UNDER the towing vehicle capacity.

What about:

"If you passed your car driving test on or after 1 January 1997 you can:

• drive a car or van up to 3,500kg maximum authorised mass (MAM) towing a trailer of up to 750kg MAM
• tow a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as the combined MAM of the trailer and towing vehicle is no more than 3,500kg"?

It's worth adding that not everything on gov.uk is accurate. A bit like the rest of the internet I suppose.