NATIONAL RAILCARD - SENIOR RAILCARD REFUNDS DUE TO COVID-19 DISRUPTION

Norah_Bone

I hold a Senior Railcard which I purchased last year and took advantage of the cost save by purchasing a 3 year card. Clearly, this year I have not been able to travel and so contacted National Rail to check whether they would refund or extend the card. Today I received the attached. Can NR legally withold money for services that they have failed to provide?

nilanteh

It’s annoying but I think they’ve explained it quite well. You can use it and trains have been running. Not what you want to hear but they aren’t illegally withholding money 

bradders1983

And this has cropped up a fair few times, they arent refunding rail cards for anyone, at all. 

I am sure you dont want the taxpayer paying for over 5m refunds. If this is the only financial loss you have suffered the last 6 months then you have done rather well.

[Deleted User]

Well think about it.  You could have travelled before March and from July this year (I have been on several) and probably have saved the cost of at least one years rail card on one journey.  I know things going a bit haywire in various parts at moment but it will turn again and you can make the most of the remainder in next couple of years. 

Think it’s fair enough to be honest.  When you purchase any rail card you aren’t restricted to any amount of journeys. Some people will use it once, others dozens of times.   You will get your moneys worth am sure. 

bagand96

Norah_Bone said:

Can NR legally withold money for services that they have failed to provide?

What service have they failed to provide? You paid for a Railcard which they provided. That Railcard entitles you to a discount on rail fares. Trains are running, and your card is valid for the discount on fares. 

I'm not being unsympathetic, I do understand your frustration. It's not your fault that for a portion of this year Government restrictions meant you couldn't travel by rail. But it's not NR's either. And ultimately the government are their regulator and have made a decision.

Aylesbury_Duck

They haven't failed to provide a service and their explanation is totally fair.  You paid for a railcard which in normal times could have saved you many multiples of its cost in reduced fares.  It still will over the course of three years, I'm sure, so I can't see you've suffered a loss, more a lost opportunity. 

This is one of those costs of the pandemic that too many people think they shouldn't have to bear, thinking that someone else should lose out rather than themselves.

mattyprice4004

There's only 4 months out of 3 years you couldn't use - I'd say their response is fair given the circumstances; sorry. 

epm-84

I think the important consideration is how much have you saved by using the railcard so far vs how much did you pay for it?

Example 1: You normally travel to the Bingo hall every fortnight, which is the next stop on the line from where you live. The adult off-peak fare is £3 return meaning you save £1 each time.  You don't make any other journeys.

Example 2: You travel to relatives living 200 miles away twice a year. The usual train fare is £60 meaning you save £40 a year just from those two journeys.

In the case of example 2 you financially benefit from having the railcard even if you stop using it 18 months in to its 3 year term.

In the case of example 1 you could lose out if you don't use it for a few months.  

However, unless the service on the line you normally use was suspended, with no replacement buses operating AND you made alternative arrangements to make the journey you would have made by train e.g. taxi then unfortunately I don't think you can pursue it further.

eskbanker

epm-84 said:

I think the important consideration is how much have you saved by using the railcard so far vs how much did you pay for it?

I'm not convinced that this is particularly important - obviously railcard holders can do the maths if they like, which would illustrate whether or not they've benefitted financially from having one, but it would be an academic exercise that doesn't actually change anything, i.e. there's no entitlement to refunds or extensions regardless of whether or not the card was a net benefit.
 

epm-84 said:

However, unless the service on the line you normally use was suspended, with no replacement buses operating AND you made alternative arrangements to make the journey you would have made by train e.g. taxi then unfortunately I don't think you can pursue it further.

I don't believe it's possible to pursue it further whatever the scenario.  Apart from anything else, railcards are sold by a national entity but services are actually provided by the individual train operating companies, who will doubtless have been entitled to suspend or reduce services during the exceptional circumstances, without financial obligation to would-be passengers (except some season ticket holders who do have some rights, and those with reservations on specific services, but not casual occasional travellers).

epm-84

eskbanker said:

epm-84 said:

I think the important consideration is how much have you saved by using the railcard so far vs how much did you pay for it?

I'm not convinced that this is particularly important - obviously railcard holders can do the maths if they like, which would illustrate whether or not they've benefitted financially from having one, but it would be an academic exercise that doesn't actually change anything, i.e. there's no entitlement to refunds or extensions regardless of whether or not the card was a net benefit.

The way the original post is worded suggested the holder thought she was legally entitled to a refund because of not being able to travel by train for a few months, so I gave that example as an alternative way of looking at it.  Possibly she's already saved more money than she spent on the railcard, in which case why should she get a refund?  However, it's also possible she bought it to make a small saving on a regular journey.  There just isn't enough information in the original post to be sure.

eskbanker said:

epm-84 said:

However, unless the service on the line you normally use was suspended, with no replacement buses operating AND you made alternative arrangements to make the journey you would have made by train e.g. taxi then unfortunately I don't think you can pursue it further.

I don't believe it's possible to pursue it further whatever the scenario.  Apart from anything else, railcards are sold by a national entity but services are actually provided by the individual train operating companies, who will doubtless have been entitled to suspend or reduce services during the exceptional circumstances, without financial obligation to would-be passengers (except some season ticket holders who do have some rights, and those with reservations on specific services, but not casual occasional travellers).

Not quite.  While a train service may be operated by a company belonging to First, Arriva, Stagecoach etc. it is the government who sets the franchise requirements for each franchise.  In March this year they worked with the train operators to find a way of reducing rail services countrywide to save money, given the franchise agreements in place required the government to provide revenue support to train operators if passenger numbers were lower than the terms the franchise was let on.  The only exceptions being Northern and LNER - already government run which made it easier for the government to cut services and Grand Central and Hull Trains - open access operators who have no requirement to run trains.

Railcards are provided by the Rail Delivery Group, which is basically a body which all the train operators belong to.  It's actually quite similar to the Nectar cards being usable at retailers who are members of the scheme (although of course there's no annual fee to have a Nectar card.)

I would suggest in the scenario I did describe, if you wanted to pursue it further then you should do so in the form of a compliant to the train operator who didn't provide the service and detailing how you lost out financially due to the service being withdrawn without notice, not to complain to the railcard issuer who have done their job in providing the railcard and who I don't think have records of every ticket an individual holding a railcard has purchased.  I don't think if you are successful you'll get much in the form of compensation but you might get a couple of complimentary vouchers as a gesture of goodwill.

eskbanker

Sounds like we're in agreement then - there are no grounds on which to pursue the railcard provider.

Whether or not anyone can pursue a TOC for lack of train service provision will be a separate issue unrelated to use of a railcard - it still seems unlikely to me that a claim would be tenable (except in the limited circumstances I outlined) but as you say there's always the possibility of some sort of 'go away' gesture....