TSB reduces branch network by a third and loses 900 jobs

Old_Lifer

I am  of course not talking about those who are physically disabled.

Banking is done face to face across the bank counter.   The individuals concerned are well known to their local bank staff.

JamesPeter

It is not only the physically disabled who may have problems.

My nephew was born with Downs Syndrome along with other problems.

Over the years he had learned to use cash in a sort of ‘If I have it, it can be spent’ type of way. He simply cannot comprehend money in a bank or budgeting. When he goes out his carer gives him ‘spending money’. He can just about manage to use his bus pass but needs monitoring in its use (fortunately the local drivers know him, so if he tried to get on the wrong bus, the drivers put him right).

We tried him with a debit card, but as well as not being capable of remembering or using a PIN. If he used contactless, he would simply have no control of what he spends as he cannot comprehend it whatsoever. He would simply believe everything is free!  

He is aged 36 and tries to live as independent a life as he can, but for him, cash is the only way he can live an independent life. Cash is his 'reasonable adjustment' under the Equalities Act.

Old_Lifer

There  are many who post on MSE who regularly post that everyone  should bank on the internet or on a mobile.  Understandable perhaps,  if they live comfortable lives  and have never been impacted by disability.

In addition to the elderly who many suffer from dementia,  there  is an army of people out there who have a mental disability and who rely on cash.    Some will have been born disabled, some may have become disabled as a result of a road accident or other type of accident,  some when young may have had an adverse reaction to a vaccination,   some may have become disabled following  service in the military.

In my opinion  there will be an ongoing need for cash  in our society.

Takmon

London7766551 said:

Takmon said:

London7766551 said:

eskbanker said:

London7766551 said:

The government must again state to businesses they must accept cash 

Many businesses legitimately choose not to accept cash payments, why should government intervene to force them to wind the clock back?

London7766551 said:

In my mind this means each bank pays to set up an independent common branch network across the UK that operates a branch in each town of a certain size, which allows customers (from any main bank) to carry out tasks much the same as they do now in individual bank branches at the common branch instead without the need for several banks in one town having branches.

[...]

Extensive use of the post office network of branches could come in use. 

The majority of banks already have such physical banking arrangements with Post Offices and encourage its use when closing branches....

https://www.postoffice.co.uk/everydaybanking

Edit: TSB being one such example, in the press release at the start of the thread:

In addition, TSB is further enhancing its partnership with the Post Office including adding the ability to deposit and withdraw cash using a card, for both business and personal customers, and collect coin change from pre-agreed locations.

Vast numbers of people still use cash and do not have a card or app. Put simply, there is a large chunk of the population that are old and have always used cash and always will. They are being cut out of society, I have seen it with my own eyes, people being turned away from places. I don't know about you but i'd like to think in my old age society still supports us, because when we are old, very old, I am sure we will be past it and know little of the modern way of life whatever it may be. In 20 years it may be a different story, but we need to support the old generation of cash people while they are here.

In addition cash offers privacy. I am not happy to sign over total control of money to these card companies, if it was a government (privacy aside) payment network perhaps, but they are not. They are multinational companies who want your data and a profit by selling that data. In addition what happens when all cash is gone? they have total control. Much the same with Amazon and other companies and physical shops. Cash is also used by many low income families to budget.

I'm aware you can carry out tasks as the post office already, however I do not believe the services it offers are sufficient to replace a branch. But the banks would like us to think they are I am sure.

My grandmother in her 90's hasn't been to a branch in years and much prefers to pay by card and do telephone banking because it means she doesn't have to waste time going to the bank and also doesn't like the idea of carrying around cash just in case. There is no reason elderly people can't use cards and just because they are stubborn doesn't mean we have to pander to them.

Bank branches are redundant and a waste of time and are thing of the past which will soon be phased out and cash is going the same way because card payments and similar are so much easier and more convenient. 

Not everyone is as able as your grandmother sadly. When you have paid for cash for 70 plus years, there are many reasons why a card payment isn't something everyone can do. Being able to understand the process etc. It may seem very simple to us, but to others it seems a complicated thing. It isn't pandering to anyone to make sure everyone is able to take part in society. 

Yes I know they are redundant, as I said in my post above. However what is important is that people that need access to a branch, are still able to get access. I was suggesting a solution rather than say all bank branches must stay open.

The first Credit Card in the UK was introduced 54 years ago so anyone alive who uses exclusively cash has actively chosen to avoid card payments so i don't see why we should pander to them when they have had so long to adapt. I don't think anyone "needs" access to a branch but some banks do need to improve their remote banking so there is no need to use a branch at all, but actually i haven't been to a branch in a very long time and i have accounts with almost every bank so they aren't really that essential at all.

Takmon

JamesPeter said:

It is not only the physically disabled who may have problems.

My nephew was born with Downs Syndrome along with other problems.

Over the years he had learned to use cash in a sort of ‘If I have it, it can be spent’ type of way. He simply cannot comprehend money in a bank or budgeting. When he goes out his carer gives him ‘spending money’. He can just about manage to use his bus pass but needs monitoring in its use (fortunately the local drivers know him, so if he tried to get on the wrong bus, the drivers put him right).

We tried him with a debit card, but as well as not being capable of remembering or using a PIN. If he used contactless, he would simply have no control of what he spends as he cannot comprehend it whatsoever. He would simply believe everything is free!  

He is aged 36 and tries to live as independent a life as he can, but for him, cash is the only way he can live an independent life. Cash is his 'reasonable adjustment' under the Equalities Act.

So are you saying that all businesses should accept cash from him under the Equalities act? because i don't think accepting cash is a "reasonable adjustment" to all businesses. Do you think all online retailers should accept cash? 

London7766551

Takmon said:

London7766551 said:

Takmon said:

London7766551 said:

eskbanker said:

London7766551 said:

The government must again state to businesses they must accept cash 

Many businesses legitimately choose not to accept cash payments, why should government intervene to force them to wind the clock back?

London7766551 said:

In my mind this means each bank pays to set up an independent common branch network across the UK that operates a branch in each town of a certain size, which allows customers (from any main bank) to carry out tasks much the same as they do now in individual bank branches at the common branch instead without the need for several banks in one town having branches.

[...]

Extensive use of the post office network of branches could come in use. 

The majority of banks already have such physical banking arrangements with Post Offices and encourage its use when closing branches....

https://www.postoffice.co.uk/everydaybanking

Edit: TSB being one such example, in the press release at the start of the thread:

In addition, TSB is further enhancing its partnership with the Post Office including adding the ability to deposit and withdraw cash using a card, for both business and personal customers, and collect coin change from pre-agreed locations.

Vast numbers of people still use cash and do not have a card or app. Put simply, there is a large chunk of the population that are old and have always used cash and always will. They are being cut out of society, I have seen it with my own eyes, people being turned away from places. I don't know about you but i'd like to think in my old age society still supports us, because when we are old, very old, I am sure we will be past it and know little of the modern way of life whatever it may be. In 20 years it may be a different story, but we need to support the old generation of cash people while they are here.

In addition cash offers privacy. I am not happy to sign over total control of money to these card companies, if it was a government (privacy aside) payment network perhaps, but they are not. They are multinational companies who want your data and a profit by selling that data. In addition what happens when all cash is gone? they have total control. Much the same with Amazon and other companies and physical shops. Cash is also used by many low income families to budget.

I'm aware you can carry out tasks as the post office already, however I do not believe the services it offers are sufficient to replace a branch. But the banks would like us to think they are I am sure.

My grandmother in her 90's hasn't been to a branch in years and much prefers to pay by card and do telephone banking because it means she doesn't have to waste time going to the bank and also doesn't like the idea of carrying around cash just in case. There is no reason elderly people can't use cards and just because they are stubborn doesn't mean we have to pander to them.

Bank branches are redundant and a waste of time and are thing of the past which will soon be phased out and cash is going the same way because card payments and similar are so much easier and more convenient. 

Not everyone is as able as your grandmother sadly. When you have paid for cash for 70 plus years, there are many reasons why a card payment isn't something everyone can do. Being able to understand the process etc. It may seem very simple to us, but to others it seems a complicated thing. It isn't pandering to anyone to make sure everyone is able to take part in society. 

Yes I know they are redundant, as I said in my post above. However what is important is that people that need access to a branch, are still able to get access. I was suggesting a solution rather than say all bank branches must stay open.

The first Credit Card in the UK was introduced 54 years ago so anyone alive who uses exclusively cash has actively chosen to avoid card payments so i don't see why we should pander to them when they have had so long to adapt. I don't think anyone "needs" access to a branch but some banks do need to improve their remote banking so there is no need to use a branch at all, but actually i haven't been to a branch in a very long time and i have accounts with almost every bank so they aren't really that essential at all.

This is a very middle class view to take. Not everyone can get a credit card, many many people did not even have bank accounts until the early 2000s. You might want to visit my local bank branches and explain to the people in the long queues they don't need to be there. Some things you just can't do over the internet. 

"i don't see why we should pander to them" do you feel sorry for the banks? nobody is asking you or any individual to pander to anyone. Banks offer a service and the government has a duty of care. Please read the last few pages of the thread as we kind of already went over this.

London7766551

Old_Lifer said:

There  are many who post on MSE who regularly post that everyone  should bank on the internet or on a mobile.  Understandable perhaps,  if they live comfortable lives  and have never been impacted by disability.

In addition to the elderly who many suffer from dementia,  there  is an army of people out there who have a mental disability and who rely on cash.    Some will have been born disabled, some may have become disabled as a result of a road accident or other type of accident,  some when young may have had an adverse reaction to a vaccination,   some may have become disabled following  service in the military.

In my opinion  there will be an ongoing need for cash  in our society.

I feel many on here live in bubbles. 

Takmon

London7766551 said:

Takmon said:

London7766551 said:

Takmon said:

London7766551 said:

eskbanker said:

London7766551 said:

The government must again state to businesses they must accept cash 

Many businesses legitimately choose not to accept cash payments, why should government intervene to force them to wind the clock back?

London7766551 said:

In my mind this means each bank pays to set up an independent common branch network across the UK that operates a branch in each town of a certain size, which allows customers (from any main bank) to carry out tasks much the same as they do now in individual bank branches at the common branch instead without the need for several banks in one town having branches.

[...]

Extensive use of the post office network of branches could come in use. 

The majority of banks already have such physical banking arrangements with Post Offices and encourage its use when closing branches....

https://www.postoffice.co.uk/everydaybanking

Edit: TSB being one such example, in the press release at the start of the thread:

In addition, TSB is further enhancing its partnership with the Post Office including adding the ability to deposit and withdraw cash using a card, for both business and personal customers, and collect coin change from pre-agreed locations.

Vast numbers of people still use cash and do not have a card or app. Put simply, there is a large chunk of the population that are old and have always used cash and always will. They are being cut out of society, I have seen it with my own eyes, people being turned away from places. I don't know about you but i'd like to think in my old age society still supports us, because when we are old, very old, I am sure we will be past it and know little of the modern way of life whatever it may be. In 20 years it may be a different story, but we need to support the old generation of cash people while they are here.

In addition cash offers privacy. I am not happy to sign over total control of money to these card companies, if it was a government (privacy aside) payment network perhaps, but they are not. They are multinational companies who want your data and a profit by selling that data. In addition what happens when all cash is gone? they have total control. Much the same with Amazon and other companies and physical shops. Cash is also used by many low income families to budget.

I'm aware you can carry out tasks as the post office already, however I do not believe the services it offers are sufficient to replace a branch. But the banks would like us to think they are I am sure.

My grandmother in her 90's hasn't been to a branch in years and much prefers to pay by card and do telephone banking because it means she doesn't have to waste time going to the bank and also doesn't like the idea of carrying around cash just in case. There is no reason elderly people can't use cards and just because they are stubborn doesn't mean we have to pander to them.

Bank branches are redundant and a waste of time and are thing of the past which will soon be phased out and cash is going the same way because card payments and similar are so much easier and more convenient. 

Not everyone is as able as your grandmother sadly. When you have paid for cash for 70 plus years, there are many reasons why a card payment isn't something everyone can do. Being able to understand the process etc. It may seem very simple to us, but to others it seems a complicated thing. It isn't pandering to anyone to make sure everyone is able to take part in society. 

Yes I know they are redundant, as I said in my post above. However what is important is that people that need access to a branch, are still able to get access. I was suggesting a solution rather than say all bank branches must stay open.

The first Credit Card in the UK was introduced 54 years ago so anyone alive who uses exclusively cash has actively chosen to avoid card payments so i don't see why we should pander to them when they have had so long to adapt. I don't think anyone "needs" access to a branch but some banks do need to improve their remote banking so there is no need to use a branch at all, but actually i haven't been to a branch in a very long time and i have accounts with almost every bank so they aren't really that essential at all.

This is a very middle class view to take. Not everyone can get a credit card, many many people did not even have bank accounts until the early 2000s. You might want to visit my local bank branches and explain to the people in the long queues they don't need to be there. Some things you just can't do over the internet. 

"i don't see why we should pander to them" do you feel sorry for the banks? nobody is asking you or any individual to pander to anyone. Banks offer a service and the government has a duty of care. Please read the last few pages of the thread as we kind of already went over this.

Yes not everyone can get a credit card but everyone can certainly get a bank account with a debit card unless they have previously committed financial fraud, so the only reason not to use one in the last 20 years is stubbornness and resistance to change. If people aren't forced to change then sometimes they never will.

Well considering you can do everything online with banks like Starling which don't have branches then the only reason you can't do everything online with other banks is because they haven't implemented the system. Realistically the online thing that isn't physically possible online is paying in cash and that's it.
Also from what someone told me about a bank branch visit they do actually have staff members that go up to people in the queue and tell them how they can do what they need too online or over the telephone etc because most don't actually need to be there.

Yes i understand that some people with disabilities, mental illness etc may struggle to use cards but if that's the case then they also wouldn't understand direct debits, utility bills etc so must have help with them anyway and nobody is proposing that everything in the world changes so everything to do with life is within every single persons capability because that just isn't realistic. 

Eco_Miser

eskbanker said:

Eco_Miser said:

eskbanker said:

London7766551 said:
there is a large chunk of the population that are old and have always used cash and always will. They are being cut out of society, I have seen it with my own eyes, people being turned away from places.

They're not being cut out of society!  They can continue to use cash if they prefer, but can only do so when spending money in places that'll accept it,

Which means that they are being cut out of that part of society that doesn't accept cash.

I suppose it depends on one's definition of 'society' but to me there's a significant difference between 'being cut out of society' and 'not being able to pay some businesses by cash'.

That's true If some businesses is a small number. However this thread seems to be discussing the virtual elimination of cash, in which case some businesses would be a large number, effectively cutting out those who are unable or unwilling to use other methods of payments.

eskbanker said:

It's not up to customers of any business to unilaterally insist on anything, as long as the business is complying with the law and its Ts & Cs.  I do get that some obviously feel that the law should be changed though, but unless or until that happens then it remains valid for businesses to choose which payment methods they accept.  As you point out, current conditions make it even less likely that businesses would be forced to accept grubby bits of paper(/plastic) and metal.

Equally, it's not up to the business to unilaterally insist on anything.
Changes should be negotiated.

Eco_Miser

Takmon said:

London7766551 said

This is a very middle class view to take. Not everyone can get a credit card, many many people did not even have bank accounts until the early 2000s. You might want to visit my local bank branches and explain to the people in the long queues they don't need to be there. Some things you just can't do over the internet. 

"i don't see why we should pander to them" do you feel sorry for the banks? nobody is asking you or any individual to pander to anyone. Banks offer a service and the government has a duty of care. Please read the last few pages of the thread as we kind of already went over this.

Yes not everyone can get a credit card but everyone can certainly get a bank account with a debit card unless they have previously committed financial fraud, so the only reason not to use one in the last 20 years is stubbornness and resistance to change. If people aren't forced to change then sometimes they never will.

Well considering you can do everything online with banks like Starling which don't have branches then the only reason you can't do everything online with other banks is because they haven't implemented the system. Realistically the online thing that isn't physically possible online is paying in cash and that's it.
Also from what someone told me about a bank branch visit they do actually have staff members that go up to people in the queue and tell them how they can do what they need too online or over the telephone etc because most don't actually need to be there.

Yes i understand that some people with disabilities, mental illness etc may struggle to use cards but if that's the case then they also wouldn't understand direct debits, utility bills etc so must have help with them anyway and nobody is proposing that everything in the world changes so everything to do with life is within every single persons capability because that just isn't realistic. 

Direct debits and such are normally set up at home, and people that need it can get assistance.

Debit/credit cards  and cash are used out in the real world and not every person with a mental disability has or needs someone to accompany them at all times. JamesPeter 

gave a specific example, to which you raised  the strawman argument of online retailers. I'm talking about bricks and mortar shops.