Switch to Economy 7 - Lack of Information to make an informed £ decision

AGBB8S

I am currently on a 1 Rate (i.e. Day rate only) Prepayment Meter. Unfortunately landlord is not happy for prepayment meter to removed for a credit (legacy type meter). I believe I am on one of the lowest tariffs (with Bulb) I can get for PPM type of meter for West Midlands. Landlord wants to install Economy 7 Storage Heaters as part of a government grant he is getting to improve the flat, so advice I get from the Energy Grant Company and Bulb is I need a meter change to a 2 Rate meter. I might even have to change supplier to get a free install of a meter, as Bulb are quoting £120.00 for the change of a 1-Rate to 2-Rate meter.
However I am finding it difficult to get informed decisions on whether I will be worse off after switching to Eco7 rather than my current 1-Rate tariff, because
a) Most comparison websites (Uswitch, Compare-the-Market) are poor - they even have the wrong tariff information about my current plan, so their information seems to be unreliable and does not give me confidence at all.
b) Comparison websites do not have details of when the cheaper Night Rate applies - apparently this does vary from supplier as well as regional variations on times with same supplier
c) I have the kilowatt specifications of the storage radiators from the landlord, but I need to analyse these carefully to work out if I am better off with these, & will they be able to keep my flat warm for less money than I currently pay (14.088p per kwh in VAT), to say to run a couple of 60watt Oil-filled radiators? If the storage heaters run out of energy after their overnight charge, hence needing running again during the day, the cost could be crippling on the day rate? The Day Rate on Eco7 is often heavily inflated over my current anytime rate of 14.09p per kwh. 
d) I ring Scottish Power (ok perhaps a mistake on my part, but I was with them before I left for Bulb 2 years ago). They say their computerised quote system will not allow them to quote for a 2-rate tariff until I have a 2-Rate meter installed. As soon as they start the quote process on my address, I was told their system knows I have a 1-Rate meter and therefore will only allow them to present 1-Rate tariff information!! Even general info, like the cheaper rate Night hours duration and start times, they cannot, or will not give, saying "it varies depending on where you live, but we are not telling you, because you only have a 1-Rate meter. By all means transfer to us (might take 4 weeks) then wait 2 weeks, then ask for 2 Rate meter, then we can quote timescales (up to a further 8 weeks) to get a 2- Rate meter installed. Once that is installed we can inform you of the tariffs".

I find Scottish Power's Sales Dept spiel ludicrous.... How is one meant to make an informed decision on changing to Economy 7 if they won't give the information upfront?
Does any one have any tips on getting the information I require?
Sure I could try Sales Departments of responsible energy companies (i.e. not Scottish Power who expect me to switch to them and then wait 14 weeks to find the answer on their costs and charging policies). Can anyone recommend a good Economy 7 provider at all?? Cheap rates are imperative...
I understand the real and full answer to c) is dependant on the thermal efficiency of my flat, my living habits. etc etc but are there are any guidelines out there?
I will however try MSE's new AutoCompare &  Switcher, to see if better than Uswitch, Compare-the-Meerket etc

Thanks for reading - any more detail needed please ask!

[Deleted User]

Hi,

if there is a charge for changing the meter your landlord should pay for that as it's part of his upgrade,

All comparison sites will know what type or meter you have when you input your postcode, so will be unable to quote you E7 rates.

Gerry1

[Deleted User] said:

All comparison sites will know what type or meter you have when you input your postcode, so will be unable to quote you E7 rates.

Nope.  Many sites do not automatically check the national database, and several that do check just say 'We believe you have an Economy 7 meter, Yes / No ?'.  I know for certain because I have an E7 meter but GCH, and sometimes I'm on single rate, sometimes on E7, depending which happens to be cheaper.

Even if all sites did check, you could just use a different non-E7 local address to get a quotation.

Forget the Auto Switch and similar, they don't do anything you can't do yourself.  Always start comparing with Citizens Advice and 'Switch with Which?'.

When you have E7 the meter will allow you to confirm the start and end times for cheap rate.  The E7 times vary by region, but it's your DNO you would need to ask, not the energy supplier.

A good installation will have heaters that are big enough and that operate from a circuit that's switched by the meter, so you'd only need to know accurate E7 times for using the tumble dryer etc.  Cheapskate landlords will install cheap simple 'box of bricks' heaters that are too small (you pay the bills if you have to top up at peak rate in the evening).

Ideally you need a well insulated programmable type with a fan (e.g. Dimplex Quantum) together with both a 24h and E7 supply so that you're not paying to keep the place tropical in the small hours.  They can often run on just a 24h supply and their internal timeswitch, but can be problematic if not set correctly (switches on during peak rate) or if the timer can't accommodate split cheap rate periods such as 2230 - 0030 and 0230 - 0730.

tim_p

I’m sure it’s a typo but be careful when comparing if you think you’ve got 60w oil filled rads.  600 surely?

macman

As above: even a couple of 600W oil filled rads will not adequately heat the property. A single NSH will provide 2 or 3kW.
Generally speaking, as long as you can use a minimum of 33% on cheap rate, then E7 will be more economic. If properly sized and adjusted for output, the E7 charge should last through the evening.
Heating on single rate electricity is always the most expensive option, whatever kind of rads you use.
Since your LL does not have to pay the utility bills, except during void periods, the choice of meter type should not concern him.

Gerry1

E7 can be cost effective with some suppliers at much lower levels of cheap rate usage.  My usage is about 22% and I just go with single rate or E7 depending on who is the cheapest each time I switch.

macman

Agreed, it does depend on the tariffs. With NSH's (and presumably an immersion heater as well) it is bound to be cheaper on E7. I suggest that the OP is over-thinking this. The only circumstance in which it wouldn't be cheaper is if the property is being under-heated (which the mention of a couple of oil-filled rads does possibly indicate). 
Nice to hear of an LL actually thinking of the running cost to the tenant, rather than just going for the cheapest capital cost to himself and using cheap convectors.

Gerry1

macman said:

I suggest that the OP is over-thinking this.

Absolutely ! No point whatsoever in trying to compare E7 switching times, you get what you are given in your area and that's it, there's nothing you can do about it.  Provided that the NSHs and immersion heater are on separate circuits controlled by the meter, you only need to know the exact times so that you know when to use the tumble dryer etc.

The NSH kWh rating won't be very helpful in working out running costs.  Most of the time they won't draw the rated power for the full seven hours: it depends on the weather and whether the OP prefers tropical or temperate conditions.  It's far better to go for bigger heaters and not have to use the full capacity rather than tiddly little ones that will go cold in the afternoon and evening.

macman

Assuming teleswitching, times are usually midnight to 7am or 1am to 8am. It's determined by the DNO: nothing to do with the provider. With clockwork metering, the timing can be hours out-which may or may not be an advantage.

AGBB8S

Firstly, thanks to all for their helpfulness and taking their time to reply!
Big thanks to Macman, Gerry1, tim_p and frugalmacdugal.

AGBB8S

[Deleted User] said:

Hi,

if there is a charge for changing the meter your landlord should pay for that as it's part of his upgrade,

All comparison sites will know what type or meter you have when you input your postcode, so will be unable to quote you E7 rates.

Yes, I'm sure my landlord will not expect me to pay the meter change fee, however he is not keen on paying either!
So I have been asked to challenge this with electricity supplier, on the basis I am technically in fuel poverty. More work for me, but if I want to remain with some control over the whole process, best I do it myself rather than grant the landlord permission to sort the change-over out.

Gerry1 said:

[Deleted User] said:

All comparison sites will know what type or meter you have when you input your postcode, so will be unable to quote you E7 rates.

Nope.  Many sites do not automatically check the national database, and several that do check just say 'We believe you have an Economy 7 meter, Yes / No ?'.  I know for certain because I have an E7 meter but GCH, and sometimes I'm on single rate, sometimes on E7, depending which happens to be cheaper.

Even if all sites did check, you could just use a different non-E7 local address to get a quotation.

Gerry1 is correct here: - As for Comparison Sites, when you in put postcode, most will let you look at all tariffs for my address, ie Economy7, credit meters and PPM.

However, I am finding the accuracy of the rates can be more than 10% out.
When I used Comparison Sites say 2 years ago, they seemed to be spot on.

Perhaps this because currently there is a big rate shake up this October (because of OFGEM capping?) that is causing  Comparison Sites difficulty in keeping up? 
If you switch based on rates on Comparison Site which show cheaper than going to that supplier direct,  I am not convinced that with some suppliers they will honour that rate by the time the switch process is complete in 3-6 weeks time...Or if they don't increase immediately, you will get a notice your rates are going up ASAP.