Paved drive/ drop kerb

ameliacatherine

We are in the process of purchasing our new home and we have a couple of concerns. First our solicitor is raising this enquiry: Is there a paved driveway or dropped kerb?.  Please provide copy Planning Permission or confirm that the surface covered is not more than 5sqm, that the surface is permeable allowing water to drain through (such as permeable concrete, block paving or porous asphalt) or the rain water is directed to a lawn or border to drain naturally. I understand this is aiming at flood prevention however does it also apply to drop down kerb that was done 20 years ago? Also what’s next if they haven’t got the planning permission for either of those things?

Confused63

I would have never thought that you would need planning permission to pave your drive way. I think you need to apply to the local council to request a drop kerb though, I assumed that you pay and they do it for you, but maybe not lol. 

MSE_ForumTeam5

We've moved this to the Home Buying board

TBagpuss

Confused63 said:

I would have never thought that you would need planning permission to pave your drive way. I think you need to apply to the local council to request a drop kerb though, I assumed that you pay and they do it for you, but maybe not lol. 

As I understand it, you need permission to install a drive, so if you are paving over garden, unless you are using a permeable surface. If yhe hosu was built with a driveway I don't think you need permission to repair it or replace it - so (for instnace)_ taking up ashphalt and repalcing it with block paving wouldn't need permission, but paving over the front garden to install a driveway would. 

Equally, instaling a dropped kerb requires permission - if there's no permission then I suspect that it means that council can ignore it - e.g. if they want to install a lamppost or bus shelter on the pavement  blocking the access they would be able to do so. I don't know whether there would be any time limit on that - so if the dropped kerb had been installed without permission , it might be too late for them to enforce and require that it is removed, but you might end up unable to use it.  
Depending on how long the kerb and driveway have been in use its's possible that a right of way may have been established but in the event that the sellers can't provide evidence of the appropriate permissions you would need to discuss your options and any risks with your solicitor.

aoleks

you don't need planning permission if you use porous materials that allow the water to drain naturally. to simplify, unless you want something fancy, like a tarmac or resin driveway, you will be fine without planning permission.

Planning permission - Paving your front garden - Planning Portal

ciderboy2009

I'm actually quite surprised that the solicitor isn't asking the date it was installed as part of this question.

There's a useful document from the Environment Agency at https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/7728/pavingfrontgardens.pdf

One relevant quote from it is:

"From 1 October 2008 the permitted development rights (see Glossary) that allow householders to pave their front garden with hardstanding without planning permission have changed in order to reduce the impact of this type of development on flooding and on pollution of watercourses.

You will not need planning permission if a new or replacement driveway of any size uses permeable (or porous) surfacing, such as gravel, permeable concrete block paving or porous asphalt, or if the rainwater is directed to a lawn or border to drain naturally.

If the surface to be covered is more than five square metres planning permission will be needed for laying traditional, impermeable driveways that do not provide for the water to run to a permeable area."

canaldumidi

Tbagpuss is right re the planning permission, but planning breaches can only be enforced for 4 years- so if the drive predates that it's fine.

However I am not sure it's right that "taking up ashphalt (sic) and repalcing it with block paving wouldn't need permission". A like-for-like replacement (ie replacing old asphalt with new asphalt)is fine, but changing toblock paving would (I think) need planning consent (wich might be refused as it's not permeable).

I certainly recall threads here where councils have deliberately blocked drives where there was an unauthorised dropped curb - and also vaguely recall a council removing a dropped curb though I'm less sure of that!

Section62

aoleks said:

you don't need planning permission if you use porous materials that allow the water to drain naturally. to simplify, unless you want something fancy, like a tarmac or resin driveway, you will be fine without planning permission.

Planning permission - Paving your front garden - Planning Portal

If you meet all the conditions then a driveway may be permmitted development, which means planning consent is deemed to be granted.

However, there are limitations to permitted development rights (e.g. not applying to flats or maisonettes) and permitted development may be restricted by a planning condition or Article 4 Direction.

So to be fine it is necessary to have permitted development rights in the first place and then meet all the requirements of PD.

user1977

(a) it's only a "curb" if it's American, and
(b) the OP is from two years ago

canaldumidi

user1977 said:

(b) the OP is from two years ago

Oops! Thanks.

MSE_ForumTeam5 should have spotted that before moving the thread!

Section62

TBagpuss said:

Confused63 said:

I would have never thought that you would need planning permission to pave your drive way. I think you need to apply to the local council to request a drop kerb though, I assumed that you pay and they do it for you, but maybe not lol. 

As I understand it, you need permission to install a drive, so if you are paving over garden, unless you are using a permeable surface.

The planning situation is more complicated (see my previous post).  In addition planning consent may be required to create a new access to a classified (A, B, or C) road.

TBagpuss said:

If yhe hosu was built with a driveway I don't think you need permission to repair it or replace it - so (for instnace)_ taking up ashphalt and repalcing it with block paving wouldn't need permission, but paving over the front garden to install a driveway would.

This is Ok so long as the surfacing remains permeable, and you don't increase the size, and there aren't restrictions such as planning conditions and/or Article 4 Directions etc.

TBagpuss said:

Equally, instaling a dropped kerb requires permission - if there's no permission then I suspect that it means that council can ignore it - e.g. if they want to install a lamppost or bus shelter on the pavement  blocking the access they would be able to do so. I don't know whether there would be any time limit on that - so if the dropped kerb had been installed without permission , it might be too late for them to enforce and require that it is removed, but you might end up unable to use it.

There's no time limit.  But if challenged the highway authority would need to provide some kind of evidence that consent for a crossover hadn't been given, and in 'historic' situations this evidence would be hard to produce.  Generally though the HA would opt to put street furniture where it wouldn't be on someone's crossover.  Enforcement is more likely where use of the crossover is dangerous or causing damage to the highway.

TBagpuss said:

Depending on how long the kerb and driveway have been in use its's possible that a right of way may have been established but in the event that the sellers can't provide evidence of the appropriate permissions you would need to discuss your options and any risks with your solicitor.

There wouldn't be a right of way established over time, more than any right which already exists.  The public (everybody) already has a right to pass and repass on highway land and no new private right can be created merely by use.  The occupier of the adjacent land already has rights on their own land, and the passage of time/use won't change those.

There is a right in common law to access the highway from adjoining land, but likewise that doesn't change over time.  The right is also subject to restriction by statute law, which is where the 'permission' part comes in.