VCS - Court Claim. Is it worth including a Counter Claim?

satchy_b

Hi
I received a PCN from VCS Ltd in Sept 2017. I never formerly appealed and have never confirmed who was driving the vehicle. I replied to every letter they sent, but pretty much all of them were ignored and they just kept sending their letters with ever increasing costs.
I've found the template letter for the Defence which I now intend to use, but before I found it I came across the following cases (I'm new and can't post links, so the space after www. will need deleting):
www. dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4566268/Driver-hounded-year-parking-ticket-wins-1-000.html  - I've struggled to find the actual court details but he obviously won against a PPC.
www. 5rb.com/case/ferguson-v-british-gas-trading-ltd/ - A good part of Ms Ferguson's counter claim was based on the fact that she'd received letters threatening court action and CCJ's.
Based on these I was planning on including a Counter Claim, on the basis of receiving letters threatening court action and CCJ's, which the VCS 'ought to know' is essentially bullying people into paying. My NTK also stated a date for final payment, that was 4 days sooner than it should have been (based on POFA 2012), so immediately VCS is adding unwarranted pressure. I was considering claiming an hourly rate based on the time spent dealing with it all plus the same amount again for distress caused (which is what Ferguson did). 
So I was wondering:
1. Is this enough for a reasonably solid Counter Claim?
2. Does anyone know if many people Counter Claim and win?
3. Can the defence template still be used, if a Counter Claim is also going to be made?
Paying the court fee to Counter Claim doesn't bother me, I'm just trying to get a feel for whether it's worth trying and has a chance of being successful.
Thanks in advance.

KeithP

Hello and welcome to the forums.

What is the Issue Date on your County Court Claim Form?

satchy_b

I didn't think anyone would reply this late! So thanks...(And I'm off to bed soon...)

25th August, but I acknowledged on 10th Sept, I believe I have until 27th to submit by email (please correct me if I'm wrong).

Counter claim would be based on Protection from Harassment Act 1997.

bargepole

The point about Ferguson -v- British Gas was that the alleged 'debt' was never owed by Ms Ferguson in the first place, and therefore the harassment was established by their continued pursuit (23 letters) for something which turned out to be a computer error.

In your case, you would first have to establish in your Defence, that you had no liability whatsoever to VCS. There aren't enough facts in your original post to determine whether that's true, the wrong date on the NTK may not be fatal to their case.

BrownTrout

VCS conduct which people may not like is not harassment. 
You can only defend on the basis of the mis serving of the NTK (ie does not comply with POFA) if you were not the driver, because if you were asked in court if you were driving you have to be honest and the moment you say you were, POFA goes out of the window.  Judges dont like defendants who try and be clever with this.

D_P_Dance

If the PPC has behaved badly, not answered your letters, has harassed you, has threatened you, have otherwise acted unreasonably, or misinformed you, then, imo, a counter claim is worthwhile.  Especially if you have a winning   They have wasted your time, waste some of theirs.   

Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams, so consider complaining to your MP, sometimes it can lead to cancellation., i

Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, many of whom are former clampers, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, and darfts have beenopened for publc consulatation,

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these companies, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, under new legislation but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/

Please also read these and have your say

https://standardsdevelopment.bsigroup.com/projects/2020-00193#/section

You do not need to register to comment on the enforcement framework which can be found here. It has a link on page 5 to make comments.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/913272/Code_Enforcement_Framework_consultation.pdf

satchy_b

Hmmm...thanks for the informative points...

I had good reason to believe my friend was driving but when I spoke to him he (conveniently or rather inconveniently said) he couldn't remember. It's not something I'm going to get him to admit to although he didn't say he definitely wasn't driving and that he'd be willing to write a witness statement to that effect. Not sure if that helps me or not. Although, do VCS have to prove I was driving? Or do I have to prove I wasn't?

VCS have only pursued me following the NTK. I have highlighted to them on multiple occasions that they haven't met the conditions of POFA 2012 (which I'm pretty confident about) and therefore have no right to claim from me as the keeper but these have been ignored. The first time they've suggested they're pursuing me as the driver (and/or keeper) was on their statement of particulars. But I can see that this is where the 'abuse of process' argument comes in.

With regards to harassment in my mind it's more about intent than frequency. Whether it's 23 letters or 6 (with 30 or so intimidating statements) their intention is still to scare someone into paying. Although, I could be completely wrong!?

BrownTrout

satchy_b said:

Hmmm...thanks for the informative points...

I had good reason to believe my friend was driving but when I spoke to him he (conveniently or rather inconveniently said) he couldn't remember. It's not something I'm going to get him to admit to although he didn't say he definitely wasn't driving and that he'd be willing to write a witness statement to that effect. Not sure if that helps me or not. Although, do VCS have to prove I was driving? Or do I have to prove I wasn't?

VCS have only pursued me following the NTK. I have highlighted to them on multiple occasions that they haven't met the conditions of POFA 2012 (which I'm pretty confident about) and therefore have no right to claim from me as the keeper but these have been ignored. The first time they've suggested they're pursuing me as the driver (and/or keeper) was on their statement of particulars. But I can see that this is where the 'abuse of process' argument comes in.

With regards to harassment in my mind it's more about intent than frequency. Whether it's 23 letters or 6 (with 30 or so intimidating statements) their intention is still to scare someone into paying. Although, I could be completely wrong!?

Either you were driving or you were not.
What makes you think ?

satchy_b

I'm convinced I wasn't driving, but if my friend (who I fell out with a while ago) won't admit he was then there's not much I can do. If I was to say this in court he would be in contempt of court which opens up a completely different issue as it's just my word against his and that's not an argument I feel is going to help my situation. So I either just say it was me; or I say that I no longer remember - it was over 3 years ago after all and there was nothing overly unique about the night - either of us could have driven the car; we've both parked in that car park at one time or another (prior to the car park becoming privately owned) and we've both received PCN's at various times (which have been dealt with). I've asked VCS to show me pictures of who was driving and as expected they've ignored my request (maybe because they don't have any but don't want to admit it).

nosferatu1001

If you were not the driver, you are under no compulsion to identify who was. This is not a S172 notice from the police!
You just need to be anle to say you were not the driver. At that point, POFA is fully in play

D_P_Dance

 I have highlighted to them on multiple occasions that they haven't met the conditions of POFA 2012 (which I'm pretty confident about) and therefore have no right to claim from me as the keeper but these have been ignored. 

In which case nI would go ahead with a counter claim, but I suspect many/most on here would not.  It really depends on one's attitude to risk.