Being forced to work hours that others refuse. Is this discrimination?

RedHitman

Comms69 said:

RedHitman said:

I’ll try to keep this short; I work part-time (25 hours a week) and my employer’s operating hours are from 7am to 10pm, 7 days a week (England). I work a range of hours between these times but I’ve never worked past 8:30pm (been an employee over 5 years) as I’ve never been needed. I have two young children (4 and 2) and I’ve started to be rota’d in working until 10pm which means by the time I’m home, showered and in bed it’s gone 11pm and is just far too late and is just out of the question.

My issue is the following; if all staff were expected to work until this time on a rota system then I’d be absolutely fine with it and happy to do my share. But out of 10 staff members, I can name at least 6, maybe 7, who refuse to work past 6pm, never mind until 10pm!

So I’m about to speak to my employer about not working until 10pm (I’ll work until 9pm to help, but 10pm is just too late).... and I already know they’re going to tell me I have to do it because it’s in my contract etc.

What I want to know/understand is if they tell me I HAVE to do it, how is my request to not work until that time due to family issues any different from all the other staff members who refuse to do it and don’t do it? Am I being discriminated against? Is that the right word?

Thank you in advance...

You arent being chosen because you're a man. 

Someone has to work it, it's you. Obviously if you dont like it, you are free to quit (and try make a claim - but it'll no doubt fail)

It's not about being "chosen". We are all on the same contract, yet some people dictate when they will and won't work. If 80% of the staff are able to refuse to work certain hours, then why can't I? It's completely unfair that I'm expected to do the hours that people refuse to do.

RedHitman

Dox said:

RedHitman said:

I’ve never done them thus never had to argue back. This is the first time. But from past experience I know what the reply is going to be!

If this is the first time, what relevant past experience have you got to draw on? 

Dox said:

RedHitman said:

I’ve never done them thus never had to argue back. This is the first time. But from past experience I know what the reply is going to be!

If this is the first time, what relevant past experience have you got to draw on? 

Because I've been with the company over 5 years. I've had many a battle. I mean this is the first time in working until 10pm so I already know what the response will be - "it's in your contract" - which is true, but it hasn't stopped 80% of staff refusing to do it. So why should I?

bradders1983

Who works the other late shifts that you don't? Because surely you don't work all seven a week. 

[Deleted User]

RedHitman said:

Undervalued said:

RedHitman said:

_shel said:

RedHitman said:

I’ll try to keep this short; I work part-time (25 hours a week) and my employer’s operating hours are from 7am to 10pm, 7 days a week (England). I work a range of hours between these times but I’ve never worked past 8:30pm (been an employee over 5 years) as I’ve never been needed. I have two young children (4 and 2) and I’ve started to be rota’d in working until 10pm which means by the time I’m home, showered and in bed it’s gone 11pm and is just far too late and is just out of the question.

My issue is the following; if all staff were expected to work until this time on a rota system then I’d be absolutely fine with it and happy to do my share. But out of 10 staff members, I can name at least 6, maybe 7, who refuse to work past 6pm, never mind until 10pm!

So I’m about to speak to my employer about not working until 10pm (I’ll work until 9pm to help, but 10pm is just too late).... and I already know they’re going to tell me I have to do it because it’s in my contract etc.

What I want to know/understand is if they tell me I HAVE to do it, how is my request to not work until that time due to family issues any different from all the other staff members who refuse to do it and don’t do it? Am I being discriminated against? Is that the right word?

Thank you in advance...

 Discrimination , not unless you are being chosen for those shifts because of your protected characteristics. Sex, age, religion, race, sexuality etc.

 Targeted because you haven't argued back and just done the shifts, maybe. 

I’m male. All the people who’ve refused/can’t work are female and are parents. I’m male and a parent, so why am I different?

I’ve never done them thus never had to argue back. This is the first time. But from past experience I know what the reply is going to be!

But can you prove that is the reason?

It may be that you have agreed to a contract that requires you to work these hours and they haven't? The first question is what is in your terms and conditions? Then, although you have no legal right to this information, what are the other employees terms?

IF you are all on similar terms then you MAY have a case.

I can't prove it, no. Which is why I'm asking if I'm using the right word. But there is definitely a bias towards the female staff being able to dictate their working hours.

The company is a small company and the owners are a little older (lets say) so I helped them with all policies and procedures paperwork since I arrived as I have experience in HR. I wrote the contracts. I wrote the staff handbook. I wrote the T&C's. We're all on the same - but some people pick and choose what they do whereas I've been the good guy and done whatever is best for the business.

If you wrote the contracts, why didn't you state how often people need to take their turn on late shifts?

RedHitman

warby68 said:

Presumably as you only work 25 hours pw this won't be every day of the week  and/or there will be other family friendly times when you aren't working so it will be harder to argue the family commitment angle. 2 and 4 y old will be in bed long before your 9pm offer so it does sound more like just a preference and a grump about what others get. I'd be careful how you present your reasons to your employer. Appreciate there may be more background and that I am just going on first impressions.
Its check your contract and have a polite conversation about what is prompting the change, whether can you express preferences for your shifts and will it be longer term?  Then you can think about next steps.
Employers don't have to treat employees the same and contracts can differ. Its not inherently wrong to choose you and not others. 

warby68 said:

Presumably as you only work 25 hours pw this won't be every day of the week  and/or there will be other family friendly times when you aren't working so it will be harder to argue the family commitment angle. 2 and 4 y old will be in bed long before your 9pm offer so it does sound more like just a preference and a grump about what others get. I'd be careful how you present your reasons to your employer. Appreciate there may be more background and that I am just going on first impressions.
Its check your contract and have a polite conversation about what is prompting the change, whether can you express preferences for your shifts and will it be longer term?  Then you can think about next steps.
Employers don't have to treat employees the same and contracts can differ. Its not inherently wrong to choose you and not others. 

All contracts are the same (I wrote them). But some people dictate what they will and won't work no matter what the contract says. I'm now having to do the late shifts because practically everyone else refuses to. So why can't I refuse? What makes the other staff more important than me? I feel it's because the other staff who won't/can't work late are female and are parents. But I'm a parent too; just not female.

RedHitman

camelot1971 said:

RedHitman said:

Undervalued said:

RedHitman said:

_shel said:

RedHitman said:

I’ll try to keep this short; I work part-time (25 hours a week) and my employer’s operating hours are from 7am to 10pm, 7 days a week (England). I work a range of hours between these times but I’ve never worked past 8:30pm (been an employee over 5 years) as I’ve never been needed. I have two young children (4 and 2) and I’ve started to be rota’d in working until 10pm which means by the time I’m home, showered and in bed it’s gone 11pm and is just far too late and is just out of the question.

My issue is the following; if all staff were expected to work until this time on a rota system then I’d be absolutely fine with it and happy to do my share. But out of 10 staff members, I can name at least 6, maybe 7, who refuse to work past 6pm, never mind until 10pm!

So I’m about to speak to my employer about not working until 10pm (I’ll work until 9pm to help, but 10pm is just too late).... and I already know they’re going to tell me I have to do it because it’s in my contract etc.

What I want to know/understand is if they tell me I HAVE to do it, how is my request to not work until that time due to family issues any different from all the other staff members who refuse to do it and don’t do it? Am I being discriminated against? Is that the right word?

Thank you in advance...

 Discrimination , not unless you are being chosen for those shifts because of your protected characteristics. Sex, age, religion, race, sexuality etc.

 Targeted because you haven't argued back and just done the shifts, maybe. 

I’m male. All the people who’ve refused/can’t work are female and are parents. I’m male and a parent, so why am I different?

I’ve never done them thus never had to argue back. This is the first time. But from past experience I know what the reply is going to be!

But can you prove that is the reason?

It may be that you have agreed to a contract that requires you to work these hours and they haven't? The first question is what is in your terms and conditions? Then, although you have no legal right to this information, what are the other employees terms?

IF you are all on similar terms then you MAY have a case.

I can't prove it, no. Which is why I'm asking if I'm using the right word. But there is definitely a bias towards the female staff being able to dictate their working hours.

The company is a small company and the owners are a little older (lets say) so I helped them with all policies and procedures paperwork since I arrived as I have experience in HR. I wrote the contracts. I wrote the staff handbook. I wrote the T&C's. We're all on the same - but some people pick and choose what they do whereas I've been the good guy and done whatever is best for the business.

If you wrote the contracts, why didn't you state how often people need to take their turn on late shifts?

Because it says, and I quote "The Employers normal business hours are between 7am and 10pm, Monday to Sunday. You will be required to work flexible hours and your shifts will fall between the hours of 7am and 10pm. The Employee's contracted hours will be on the basis of X hours per week."

That's not clear enough that an employee is expected to work a late shift? I wasn't able to include that people MUST do X per week. They didn't want that putting in.

Undervalued

RedHitman said:

Undervalued said:

RedHitman said:

_shel said:

RedHitman said:

I’ll try to keep this short; I work part-time (25 hours a week) and my employer’s operating hours are from 7am to 10pm, 7 days a week (England). I work a range of hours between these times but I’ve never worked past 8:30pm (been an employee over 5 years) as I’ve never been needed. I have two young children (4 and 2) and I’ve started to be rota’d in working until 10pm which means by the time I’m home, showered and in bed it’s gone 11pm and is just far too late and is just out of the question.

My issue is the following; if all staff were expected to work until this time on a rota system then I’d be absolutely fine with it and happy to do my share. But out of 10 staff members, I can name at least 6, maybe 7, who refuse to work past 6pm, never mind until 10pm!

So I’m about to speak to my employer about not working until 10pm (I’ll work until 9pm to help, but 10pm is just too late).... and I already know they’re going to tell me I have to do it because it’s in my contract etc.

What I want to know/understand is if they tell me I HAVE to do it, how is my request to not work until that time due to family issues any different from all the other staff members who refuse to do it and don’t do it? Am I being discriminated against? Is that the right word?

Thank you in advance...

 Discrimination , not unless you are being chosen for those shifts because of your protected characteristics. Sex, age, religion, race, sexuality etc.

 Targeted because you haven't argued back and just done the shifts, maybe. 

I’m male. All the people who’ve refused/can’t work are female and are parents. I’m male and a parent, so why am I different?

I’ve never done them thus never had to argue back. This is the first time. But from past experience I know what the reply is going to be!

But can you prove that is the reason?

It may be that you have agreed to a contract that requires you to work these hours and they haven't? The first question is what is in your terms and conditions? Then, although you have no legal right to this information, what are the other employees terms?

IF you are all on similar terms then you MAY have a case.

I can't prove it, no. Which is why I'm asking if I'm using the right word. But there is definitely a bias towards the female staff being able to dictate their working hours.

The company is a small company and the owners are a little older (lets say) so I helped them with all policies and procedures paperwork since I arrived as I have experience in HR. I wrote the contracts. I wrote the staff handbook. I wrote the T&C's. We're all on the same - but some people pick and choose what they do whereas I've been the good guy and done whatever is best for the business.

I am a bit lost here now!

If you did all that then you know what their terms are. If they are similar to yours then I think there is a strong possibility that this is indeed sex discrimination (which is the right word). If so it is unlawful.

Remember however "discrimination" is perfectly lawful UNLESS it is for one of the handful of reasons prohibited by law. If the employer simply feels that the other people are more valuable to then, work harder or whatever (rightly or wrongly) then discriminating on those grounds (again rightly or wrongly) is NOT unlawful. Discriminating just because of gender is however unlawful.

Not directly relevant as you have children too is that simply discriminating in favour of those that have is not in itself unlawful. I may however be indirectly unlawful discrimination if it can be shown that one gender (most often female) are more likely the have childcare needs but that is an extra hurdle to get over and doesn't seem to apply here.

warby68

RedHitman said:

warby68 said:

Presumably as you only work 25 hours pw this won't be every day of the week  and/or there will be other family friendly times when you aren't working so it will be harder to argue the family commitment angle. 2 and 4 y old will be in bed long before your 9pm offer so it does sound more like just a preference and a grump about what others get. I'd be careful how you present your reasons to your employer. Appreciate there may be more background and that I am just going on first impressions.
Its check your contract and have a polite conversation about what is prompting the change, whether can you express preferences for your shifts and will it be longer term?  Then you can think about next steps.
Employers don't have to treat employees the same and contracts can differ. Its not inherently wrong to choose you and not others. 

warby68 said:

Presumably as you only work 25 hours pw this won't be every day of the week  and/or there will be other family friendly times when you aren't working so it will be harder to argue the family commitment angle. 2 and 4 y old will be in bed long before your 9pm offer so it does sound more like just a preference and a grump about what others get. I'd be careful how you present your reasons to your employer. Appreciate there may be more background and that I am just going on first impressions.
Its check your contract and have a polite conversation about what is prompting the change, whether can you express preferences for your shifts and will it be longer term?  Then you can think about next steps.
Employers don't have to treat employees the same and contracts can differ. Its not inherently wrong to choose you and not others. 

All contracts are the same (I wrote them). But some people dictate what they will and won't work no matter what the contract says. I'm now having to do the late shifts because practically everyone else refuses to. So why can't I refuse? What makes the other staff more important than me?

They aren't.
The point is whilst morally  and on other scales it might seem unfair, legally (and contractually it seems) there isn't much wrong.
Others might refuse because they don't care if they lose the job or not. You can refuse but you want some protection for refusing, that might not exist.
If you're a long standing and highly regarded (although don't over-estimate this) then a reasonable discussion about what's going on should be possible - there is at least one other person and probably more who works until 10pm too, unless you're being given the 7-10 slot every day or something,  so you're in that group just as much as the other one.
Sometimes its as simple as the path of least resistance- they've accommodated as many staff as they can on first come first served basis, now they've run out of flex.
PS You wrote the contracts but don't like the terms? That could be a tough one.

RedHitman

Undervalued said:

RedHitman said:

Undervalued said:

RedHitman said:

_shel said:

RedHitman said:

I’ll try to keep this short; I work part-time (25 hours a week) and my employer’s operating hours are from 7am to 10pm, 7 days a week (England). I work a range of hours between these times but I’ve never worked past 8:30pm (been an employee over 5 years) as I’ve never been needed. I have two young children (4 and 2) and I’ve started to be rota’d in working until 10pm which means by the time I’m home, showered and in bed it’s gone 11pm and is just far too late and is just out of the question.

My issue is the following; if all staff were expected to work until this time on a rota system then I’d be absolutely fine with it and happy to do my share. But out of 10 staff members, I can name at least 6, maybe 7, who refuse to work past 6pm, never mind until 10pm!

So I’m about to speak to my employer about not working until 10pm (I’ll work until 9pm to help, but 10pm is just too late).... and I already know they’re going to tell me I have to do it because it’s in my contract etc.

What I want to know/understand is if they tell me I HAVE to do it, how is my request to not work until that time due to family issues any different from all the other staff members who refuse to do it and don’t do it? Am I being discriminated against? Is that the right word?

Thank you in advance...

 Discrimination , not unless you are being chosen for those shifts because of your protected characteristics. Sex, age, religion, race, sexuality etc.

 Targeted because you haven't argued back and just done the shifts, maybe. 

I’m male. All the people who’ve refused/can’t work are female and are parents. I’m male and a parent, so why am I different?

I’ve never done them thus never had to argue back. This is the first time. But from past experience I know what the reply is going to be!

But can you prove that is the reason?

It may be that you have agreed to a contract that requires you to work these hours and they haven't? The first question is what is in your terms and conditions? Then, although you have no legal right to this information, what are the other employees terms?

IF you are all on similar terms then you MAY have a case.

I can't prove it, no. Which is why I'm asking if I'm using the right word. But there is definitely a bias towards the female staff being able to dictate their working hours.

The company is a small company and the owners are a little older (lets say) so I helped them with all policies and procedures paperwork since I arrived as I have experience in HR. I wrote the contracts. I wrote the staff handbook. I wrote the T&C's. We're all on the same - but some people pick and choose what they do whereas I've been the good guy and done whatever is best for the business.

I am a bit lost here now!

If you did all that then you know what their terms are. If they are similar to yours then I think there is a strong possibility that this is indeed sex discrimination (which is the right word). If so it is unlawful.

Remember however "discrimination" is perfectly lawful UNLESS it is for one of the handful of reasons prohibited by law. If the employer simply feels that the other people are more valuable to then, work harder or whatever (rightly or wrongly) then discriminating on those grounds (again rightly or wrongly) is NOT unlawful. Discriminating just because of gender is however unlawful.

Not directly relevant as you have children too is that simply discriminating in favour of those that have is not in itself unlawful. I may however be indirectly unlawful discrimination if it can be shown that one gender (most often female) are more likely the have childcare needs but that is an extra hurdle to get over and doesn't seem to apply here.

Appreciate your reply. Thanks.
It's nothing to do with the bosses/owners feeling someone is more valuable or not (If anything I'm one of the most valuable - I'm the longest serving employee and I do all sorts of stuff for them outside of my job description)... It is simply a matter of staff refusing to work what their contract states (working until 10pm or working a weekend for example) for their own reasons..... and now I'm expected to work those shifts. It is simply unfair that they allow certain people - all female parents - to tell them they won't/can't work until 10pm (which is absolutely a fair point).... but now I have to because they don't have anyone else to do it. I'm a parent too and can't/won't work that late. 
The problem with all this is simply that the bosses/owners have allowed people to dictate their own working patterns and hours despite what the contract says, and now they're at a point where there's no one to work the late shifts. They've allowed this. But with me, they expect me to work it. So I want to know what legs I have to stand on to also say No.

Comms69

RedHitman said:

Comms69 said:

RedHitman said:

I’ll try to keep this short; I work part-time (25 hours a week) and my employer’s operating hours are from 7am to 10pm, 7 days a week (England). I work a range of hours between these times but I’ve never worked past 8:30pm (been an employee over 5 years) as I’ve never been needed. I have two young children (4 and 2) and I’ve started to be rota’d in working until 10pm which means by the time I’m home, showered and in bed it’s gone 11pm and is just far too late and is just out of the question.

My issue is the following; if all staff were expected to work until this time on a rota system then I’d be absolutely fine with it and happy to do my share. But out of 10 staff members, I can name at least 6, maybe 7, who refuse to work past 6pm, never mind until 10pm!

So I’m about to speak to my employer about not working until 10pm (I’ll work until 9pm to help, but 10pm is just too late).... and I already know they’re going to tell me I have to do it because it’s in my contract etc.

What I want to know/understand is if they tell me I HAVE to do it, how is my request to not work until that time due to family issues any different from all the other staff members who refuse to do it and don’t do it? Am I being discriminated against? Is that the right word?

Thank you in advance...

You arent being chosen because you're a man. 

Someone has to work it, it's you. Obviously if you dont like it, you are free to quit (and try make a claim - but it'll no doubt fail)

It's not about being "chosen". We are all on the same contract, yet some people dictate when they will and won't work. If 80% of the staff are able to refuse to work certain hours, then why can't I? It's completely unfair that I'm expected to do the hours that people refuse to do.

Yes it's unfair, but it's not illegal. You arent being chosen to work those shifts because you're a man.